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Welcome to the Success with Soul Podcast! Real talk: what task do you resist doing, no matter how much you know you want or need to do it? In today’s episode, transformation coach Joanna Lindenbaum shares what resistance archetypes are and what they can teach us about our fears. With twenty years of experience in human behavior and embodiment practices, her insights provide unique tips on how to gain transformative coaching skills by truly supporting your clients (and how doing so is more effective than marketing!)
Table of Contents
What is that task, goal, or dream that you have on your “to do” list that you just never have the time for? Every time you think about working on it, you suddenly remember that you have something else “more pressing to do” (the dishes don’t wash themselves now do they!).
We’ve all got one of those things that we resist doing, even though we know it has to get done. Or maybe it’s a dream that you’ve always wanted to accomplish, but something is holding you back.
What you might not know is that when you resist something, you can learn a lot about yourself and your fears by taking a second look at what that task is, what the fear is that is holding you back, and how that may be permeating many other areas of your life.
In today’s episode, our guest shares her expertise in a truly enlightening conversation (that is really more like transformative coaching!) about 8 resistance archetypes, how to find the gold in every type, and how to offer transformative coaching to your clients.
You can immediately sense Joanna Lindenbaum’s supportive, compassionate energy. As an expert in transformation, she helps coaches and healers take their own coaching skills to the next level by being aware of the energies they bring into coaching and how their belief in themselves and their clients can impact their coaching.
Joanna believes that the coaching, healing, consulting & transformational industries have the power to change the world in extraordinary ways. Throughout her 20 years of practice, she has seen that as these industries have grown, practitioners have focused more on marketing and less on mastering their craft to deliver the highest quality sessions. And she’s on a mission to change that.
Joanna’s insight into offering transformative coaching is powerful because of her own experience of retaining clients and helping them grow through various levels of her coaching. She focuses on the 3 R’s – resigns, referrals, and reputation in her coaching business.
By focusing more on her clients’ transformation and less on trying to market herself, Joanna retains a high rate of resigns each year both from her individual clients and in her group programs. Naturally, referrals are common from her happy clients, and her reputation precedes her, serving her better than self-marketing.
And intertwined with it all, she says that the key to supporting clients is to recognize the power of energetics in the way you interact with clients. If you as the coach believe that you and/or your clients won’t succeed or are lacking in any way, your client will receive that energy. As Joanna puts it, “Energy follows energy.”
Instead, her advice is to stop trying to “fix” people or problems. A better approach is to supportively help clients identify their resistance types and compassionately guide them through normalizing and identifying their fears as they work towards achieving their dreams.
Headline: The Resistance Archetypes
The first step towards moving beyond our fears is to put language to the types of resistance that we can face – Joanna calls them “resistance archetypes”.
We’ve got Myers-Briggs, Strengthsfinder, Enneagram, and a plethora of other personality type resources to help us understand ourselves – and yet, Joanna’s resistance archetyping guide is another incredible resource!
First off, what exactly is “resistance”? It’s when we have a goal or something we want to achieve, or a “to do” task, but we don’t actually take the steps to achieve it. Instead, we prioritize other things above it. This goal or thing can include a health, business, relationship, or hobby related goal (amongst others). The key to recognizing that we are resisting it is that we keep saying, “I need to start that…” but never do.
Learning about the different resistance archetypes might feel unmasking, but that’s a good thing! Plus, Joanna encourages clients to normalize talking about resistance and fears. If you don’t acknowledge them, they will move into your shadow side but never be gone. And sooner or later, your fears will command you instead of you commanding them.
One of the symptoms of your fears and resistance commanding you is guilt, imposter syndrome, and feeling like you are lazy or failing. But when you learn about your archetype(s) – yes, you can step into more than one at different times – you start to realize that you are none of those things.
Okay, so what are these archetypes, anyways?
So, do you feel exposed?! I know that I have operated in just about every one of these archetypes at one point or another when I was avoiding something that made me feel insecure or scared!
The beauty of the resistance archetypes is that they don’t each only highlight “negative” or shadow qualities in us – there is actually gold in each type!
That might seem surprising because what good can come from being “the victim”, for example? Joanna knows all too well, as that is the type she operates in most often. Harnessing it for her benefit, she utilizes the dramatic side of that archetype to infuse a fun energy into her coaching.
Are you a procrastinator? That means you probably know best how to create space for yourself, and you might have something to teach others about shutting off the computer and making time for self care after work.
Or maybe you’re familiar with being “the judge”, other yourself or others. The gold and good that you can harness is your discernment, which is a powerful tool when it comes to aligning yourself with the right people and projects.
In each type there is a good energy and force that you can use for impact. That’s why it’s important to normalize talking about these archetypes, Joanna believes. Only then can you be aware of how they might be holding you back, and also how you can use them to move forward.
So you’ve got the information and knowledge to start identifying and harnessing your resistance archetype. A final piece of advice that Joanna gives is to utilize somatics to identify your resistances and fears.
Somatics is recognizing how things show up in your body. If you start rubbing your sore neck or an aching head when you are stressed, you are experiencing a somatic manifestation of stress in your body.
In your journey of discover your resistance archetype, pay attention to how your body feels when you are resisting doing a task. As you think about what you are afraid of if you do (or don’t) work on that thing, pay attention to how your stomach, head, muscles, breathing rate, and other body signals respond.
Finally, don’t resist the process of identifying your resistance archetype. Trying to bypass your fears and resistances won’t get you the holistic, enlightened results that you truly need for soulful success. Instead, normalize and embrace your archetype, then use it for good!
Want regular access to more transformative coaching? Whether you are a coach or entrepreneur looking to grow a business or just want more amazing life coaching, Success with Soul has got your back!
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And if you want to learn more about archetypes, your personality type and tendencies, and gain tools for understanding yourself and others, check out the Success with Soul Monthly Membership. We offer mindset coaching, cyclical living guides, and tools for your self development. Learn more here!
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It’s when we have a goal or something we want to achieve, or a “to do” task, but we don’t actually take the steps to achieve it. Instead, we prioritize other things above it. This goal or thing can include a health, business, relationship, or hobby related goal (amongst others). The key to recognizing that we are resisting it is that we keep saying, “I need to start that…” but never do.
Focus less on marketing and more on the 3 R’s in your coaching business – resigns (renewals), referrals, and reputation. By offering truly transformational coaching to your clients, you will gain all three.
Bront'e Singleton 0:00
Hey, hey, this is Bront'e Singleton, current client and student of the incubator, the most amazing program that I've ever been in in my entire life. I just wanted to take a moment to share how amazing this program has been for me, my mindset, my business, my progress, and the wins that I've had since joining the program. So since joining the incubator, I've grown more confident in myself as a business woman as a person, and then my expertise and my ability to run my business. I was recently able to launch my course for language learners, which is amazing. And it was a huge undertaking. And because of this, I was able to make two sales on my first launch of my course, within my business as a whole, I've been able to create a system for content creation, and streamlining that process in a way that works for me and my business. So I'm less stressed out about what to post when and how. And the biggest thing which I never thought I'd be doing in my first year of business is that I created and turned on my evergreen funnel. The Incubator has given me the tools to be able to focus my time and attention on the things that really move my business and help my business grow, but also take time to take care of myself because if I'm not well, I don't have what I need, then I can't serve the people that I want to serve. So I 1,000% love the incubator program and I'm so glad so glad that I joined.
Kate Kordsmeier 1:18
You're listening to the Success with Soul podcast where we believe empowering women is the key to creating a brighter future for us all. Whether you're an entrepreneur, employee or stay at home mom, this podcast is for you. I'm your host Kate Kordsmeier and ICF life and business coach who has made over 2.2 million while working less than 25 hours a week, raising two toddlers, and quitting social media. I'm here to transparently share my expertise and help you create a life and business you love. Together with my diverse team of passionate women, many of whom you'll hear from on this podcast. We empower 1000s With holistic strategies, personal development resources and mindset tools to find freedom, flexibility and fulfillment and business and beyond. Every week we offer life coaching for Busy Women who want to improve their relationships, self care and overall well being and business coaching for coaches, course creators and consultants who want to make money sustainably. We believe personal growth and entrepreneurship are powerful tools for creating social change. And the world is a better place When more women find their voice and create their own money, power and freedom. Expect candid conversations and insightful interviews with experts that will inspire and support you on your path to intentional whole living and Success with Soul on your terms. It's time to ditch the hustle and find inner peace. Here we go
Welcome back to the Success with Soul podcast. I'm your guest host Indira with Team KK and with us today is Joanna Lindenbaumb. Joanna and I had such a great conversation. She is an expert in transformation who helps coaches and healers take their coaching skills to the next level. She believes that the coaching healing consulting and transformational industries have the power to change the world in extraordinary ways. Joanna also believes that as these industries have grown practitioners have focused more on marketing, and less on mastering their craft to deliver the highest quality sessions. She's on a mission to change that. Joanna uses her 20 years of experience with human behavior embodiment practices, and archetype and shadow to inform her secret depths practitioner certification, where students gain a level of skill, confidence and death when it comes to fears, blocks, self sabotage, and procrastination that the majority of their peers don't have. In today's episode, Joanna teaches us how to identify the seven resistance archetypes. She also walks us through a six step somatic process to navigate resistance. We go into why going all in and client transformation is actually the best marketing play. And she teaches us how to tap into what she calls the three R's. I'm so excited to dive into this episode. Let's go!
Joanna, it's such a pleasure to have you on the Success with Soul podcast. Thank you so much for being with us today.
I am so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
Yeah, I'm so excited. Just off camera. I was telling you that I wanted to really talk about this archetypes. It's something that this is the first time I've actually hear about it. So before we jump into that, let our audience know a little bit about you and your entrepreneurial journey.
Yeah, absolutely. So I have been coaching and training coaches and therapists and healers for about 20 years now. And I started with seems like so long. I started off as a business coach, and I was supporting clients to help them build their businesses and their practices. And what I noticed along the way, a couple of years in, is that the reason why my clients were having so much success was yes, it was because of the marketing strategies I was teaching them, for sure. But what I saw was kind of even more of a factor is that they were taking my modeling on how to co create transformation with their clients and their clients were so excited about the results that were being created, they were resigning with them and referring out and that my clients, businesses had really become these beautiful resign and referral machines. So at that point, what I realized was, Oh, that's really what I'm doing here. And I kind of shifted more formally into training practitioners, how to go deeper with clients, how to co create more transformation, and how to do it all in an ethical and trauma informed way.
I love that. I love that. Can you tell me a little bit more about what does that mean? What is going all in with client transformation mean?
Yeah, absolutely. So I love the coaching industry. And that being said, and I believe in it so deeply. And that being said, a lot of what has happened in the last, you know, let's say 5-10 years is that there are a lot of marketing promises that are being made, but not necessarily fulfilled. There's a lot of incredible expertise out there that coaches and practitioner have a lot of great "how to" information and how to grow your business, how to have a fulfilling relationship, how to be healthy. But a lot of times that's not being paired with what I would call transformational skills, with the kinds of skills that support clients to be able to use that incredible information. Because human beings are messy, we can't just take like the five steps to something always and execute it. We have fears that come up, we have limiting beliefs that come up, we have obstacles that come up, resistances, shadows, and what I have really seen across the board is in order to co create results with clients, we want to combine that incredible expertise we have with the ability to support our clients to move beyond those fears, and those habits so that they can execute.
And what have you found working with your clients, guiding them as they're guiding their own clients through transformation? What have you found to be, I'm not gonna say the most important, but what has been key in every single one of these stories?
Yeah, it's such a great question. I love it. It's a hard question to because I want to answer 10 different things. There are so many key things. But if I had to pick one, and this is where I always start with all of my trainings. And then we weave this throughout. It's what I would call "practitioner energetics". So what that means is, no matter what technique you're using, no matter what modality, you know, how great you ask questions, all of that, where all of it starts is the practitioner, who the practitioner is what the practitioner feels and believes how the practitioner is showing up. So what I always like to tell practitioners is that energy follows energy. So if you're showing up with an energy of not feeling confident in yourself, and your ability as a practitioner, the client in one way or another is going to feel that and not have as much competence in you. If you as a practitioner are showing up without having confidence in your client, like oh, I don't think she's going to do the homework or she's not really going to get this or she's not going to follow through. Doesn't matter what you say, in one way or another. The client is going to feel that energy follows energy. If you show up as the practitioner being scared of your client, oh, if I reflect that truth, my client is gonna get angry or get upset so I'm going to hold back that energy permeates that container. And so where everything starts is from the practitioner being in aligned energetics believing I am whole and complete as a practitioner, and you client are whole and complete. I am not here to fix anything, I am not here to save you. We are here to come together to hold space for results and transformation to happen. When you start with that, then you find the right words for the breakthrough questions. It's easier to navigate through fear all of the things.
Yeah, I love that you said we're not here to fix you. Because I think that's so important for both the practitioner and the client to go from that space. Right. We're here to transform, but there's nothing to be fixed. I think a lot of the times, there's that misconception of fixing, needing to be fixed.
Yeah. And when there's that misconception, first of all, it's a ton of pressure on the practitioner, because we can't do that, you know, that's us taking over responsibility. And then the attitude is taking away from a client's empowerment as well.
Absolutely. I'm also a certified coach, and I'm a law of attraction coach. And one of the things that is inherent in our teaching is that you have all the answers within, yeah, it's my job to just ask the questions that are gonna prompt you because you have all the answers, we don't have the answers you do. So I love that you bring that out. So tell me a little bit about how to grow a business without like the marketing hype, and instead really delivering world class transformation. What does that look like?
Yeah, so I mean, marketing is always important. I don't want to pretend like it's not. But what I have really seen for myself and for so many of my students and clients is that it takes so much more time, effort, energy, and money, to constantly be looking for new clients, for new streams of leads, you know, that like all the effort that it takes to put into ADS and funnels, and not that I don't do those, I definitely do some of that. And the strategy that takes less time and effort and money is doing the really quality work with clients. When you are able to really co create that transformation, a client is more willing, or not even willing, but excited to first of all, to resign with you. So I have clients, my students have clients that we retain for years and years and years. And not because the client feels they need us it's not a crutch. It's because the transformation is so palpable, and then they're ready for the next level and the next level. So a resign doesn't cost any marketing money. You don't have to, you know, create a lot of copy and, you know, fancy email funnels for it. You need to have good resign skills, you know, you need to know how to support a client that is finishing up with a cycle to see what is it that I want next? How do I want that? So resigns can just increase any business. So many businesses are losing money because they're not retaining clients. And then the other thing is referrals. So when you are co creating transformation with clients, and they are so thrilled about the work that you're doing together, they're much more likely to share about you on social media to share with their friends about you, all of that. And so again, a much cheaper way of bringing new clients and, and then the third, I always say it's the three R's when you're creating transformation, so resigns, referrals and reputation. Your reputation precedes you when you're co creating transformation. But more than that, when you know that you're following through on your marketing promises, all of your marketing becomes that much stronger, because you can stand in it in integrity, knowing that what you're letting prospects know is what you're going to deliver on.
Sorry, I had to mute myself because I was having a coughing attack.
I was gonna see if your okay!
Thank you. I love the tapping into the three R's and I want to and to kind of pedal back a little bit on resigns, and you said something you said the cycle, you said you've had some clients you've been with for years. So tell me what does that look like? So you start, like, for example, a cohort. And now that's done. And now you're organically just moving through different things?
Great question. So we can kind of look at it a little bit differently between one on one clients, and then group programs. So with one on one, first of all, I always recommend to people don't just do one off sessions. And don't just kind of continue on with sessions without having a container this many months, and this many sessions for many, many, many reasons. But since we're talking about resigns, I'll kind of put it in this perspective, when you just have a client that's ongoing forever. Without this is the package, and this is the amount of time, it becomes a little bit harder, first of all, to track results. And then to track new goal. So when you've just got like this ongoing forever, things can get a little loose and messy, and purpose can be lost along the way. But when you know, okay, we have we're gonna coach for six months, and at the beginning of that container, you've set your goals, what is it that you want to work on? What is it that you're looking at, then when you get to the end of those six months? It's a beautiful opportunity to say, Okay, what do we want to celebrate from those six months? What was learn what worked, you know, what didn't happen? And then take all of that and say, Okay, now from this new place, what do you want to accomplish over the next six months? And let's see if it makes sense for me to support you with that. It's in terms of transformation and CO creating results with clients, it's a much more effective way of looking at things than just ongoing. Yeah.
I love that. But I do love that you have like a start and finish, we can look at the results. And then moving on to the next one. Now we have new goals to work on that really make sense.
Yeah, new goals and new information, like over this last six months, this and this. And this really worked to help you achieve your goals. For the next six months. This was one of the gap places the last six months. So we're going to tweak that a little bit more. It helps in so many ways. In terms of groups. I have people that go through my groups like my initial sacred depths training, and then they continue with me for other trainings and other training. So you asked how that works. I have advanced trainings after that. And then clients have, and students have like begged me to create continuity programs after that. But again, all with containers. Those are usually a year long bucket. This is what we're going to accomplish this year. And then again,
I love that.
Kate Kordsmeier 18:16
Well, hey there, it's Kate Kordsmeier, and I wanted to play a quick game with you. Let me know which of these you can raise your hand for? Are you wanting to reconnect with your authentic self, soul and purpose to become the woman you want to be? We want you to create aligned habits for more rest and less stress to live intentionally and take control of your daily life, to connect to other women who are on growth journeys, and rediscover your inherent worthiness and value so you can step into your power. Are you wanting to get clarity on life's decisions and your direction? Are you wanting to partner you with your mindset to achieve your goals and find the balance between your priorities and all of the competing roles you serve? If you're saying yes, then you're going to absolutely love our Success with Soul membership. This monthly membership includes monthly soul sessions with energy healers, spiritual guides, wellness gurus and other guest experts. Monthly mindset coaching calls cyclical living guidance, journaling prompts and taro and other resources and tools for living a soulful, whole life. Head on over to Kate kordsmeier.com/membership to join us today. That's Kate kordsmeier.com/membership.
So tell me about the seven resistance archetypes. This is all new to me. So I want to know all the things
Yes, yeah, so before I even we even talk about the resistance archetypes. I usually find it helpful to talk about what resistance is and how it operates and functions because it's alive for all of us, no matter how much did not work we've done even for myself, I teach it and I still find new places. So, in the most simplest of terms, resistance is when we have a goal that we want to achieve. And it's an aligned goal, it's one that is really right for us. And it is the right timing and all of that. But somehow we resist taking the actions to get to that goal, you know, we can procrastinate, we can, you know, decide, like, Oh, this is just so overwhelming, and I just can't do it, we can find a ton of distractions. Netflix is a big, you know, one of those things, you know, we're cleaning the whole house before I start this, all of that. So that's, you know, that's what happens when we're in resistance. And we can be in resistance to a business goal to a health goal to a relationship goal, you know, to a hobby goal, health goal, whatever it is. So how does resistance work. And this is important before we even get to the archetypes. So almost always, the reason resistance arises is because it's a symptom of fear. So we might really, really, really want to accomplish a goal, let's say, to grow our business or to show up more on social media. Even though we really, really want to accomplish that goal. We may have a fear, like a fear of visibility, or a fear of being a fraud, or a fear that others if we show up in these ways, others are going to get angry at us, or a fear that others are going to criticize us, right, there's a lot of core fears that we can have. And the fears don't want to be looked at. Because if they're looked at, you know, you move on with the actions. And so something very sneaky happens. The resist, I always say this is the core fears kind of, I usually make a fist with my hand, like that's in the middle. And then the resistance behavior wraps itself around the fear as a distraction. Right. So instead of going deeper into looking, why I'm scared of being a fraud, or why I'm scared of being abandoned, or why I'm scared of visibility, we get caught up in oh my gosh, I suck. I'm such a procrastinator, or oh my gosh, this feels so overwhelming, or, Oh, the you know, the coach, that's helping me they're making it too confusing for me. And it distract the resistance distracts us from actually working with and making friends with the fear so that we can move forward. It's very sneaky and very sophisticated. But what I have found is if we can identify what some of our resistance archetypes are, then we in the moment when it shows up, we can No, it's not actually that I'm lazy right now. This is an indicator that there's something that I'm scared of let me go deeper with that. So that's what the resistance archetypes are, in a way.
And I know that you say that there's seven. Is this something that you came up with? Or this is?
Yeah, it is. And actually, there's way more than seven. Okay. I usually I usually share four or seven of the most common ones. But everybody's got their own resistance expression, we can call it sometimes it's a combination of the two, sometimes it's something completely different. So but I like to share the ones that I have found are the most common.
And what are those,
Okay, so the first one, this is one that I know the best is, is the victim archetype. Now, it doesn't mean that you are a victim, we're talking about a behavior, not a person or an identity, it and that's really important to understand not just for ourselves when we go into resistance, but when we are supporting a client and resistance because the moment I start to see my client as a victim, then I don't see them as full and complete anymore, then I'm there to fix them. Then those energetics that we were talking about earlier are off. This is just a part of the client or a part of ourselves, that shows up when we when our defenses are up. When our triggers are up. It's a way that we've adapted in order to not feel the fear. So the first one is the victim archetype. And when you go into the victim archetype, it is as if everybody and everything is against you. You are completely helpless against your circumstances. You can't get your You're golden, because this thing happened to you and that person did that thing to you. And you feel in those moments as if you've lost your personal power to move forward, like something is just against you. I call these resistance archetypes archetypes because it's almost as if we step into a foreign energy, we get caught in this vortex of energy that we believe when we're in the resistance. So when you're in the victim resistance archetype, even though you're normally an empowered person, in those moments, it feels like you have no personal power whatsoever to be able to move forward. So that's the victim. Another really common one is the judge, the judges defense mechanism is to get really critical and judgmental, either of themselves or of others or have the coach. So when you're coaching, if your client steps into the judge, one way that it could look like is, you know, what, coach, that's just a terrible strategy that we're working on, you're really not helping me at all. Now, we all I always say we always want to use our listening filters, because it might not be an aligned strategy for the client. Right? That's always the case. But when it's not that, it's because the client is so scared to take those actions that you've been strategizing on together, that they get judgmental, a really common one in the coaching industry, I see is when a coach is ready to raise their rates, they get all judgy about other people's rates, she charges too much. That's so astronomical, I would never charge that much. Oftentimes, it's because there is this fear, this core fear that the judgment is then hiding around what's gonna happen if I raise my rates, or whatever it is.
I could totally see that coming up for coaches. Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah. So that's the judge. Another really common one is the procrastinator, say too much about that one, but the procrastinator will just find anything else to do like it becomes so urgent to wash the dishes or to clean out the email inbox, when really there's a big tap, you know, write the newsletter instead, or whatever it is. So that's the procrastinator, similar to the procrastinator, but a little different is the flake. So the flake when we see the flake in a client, it's a client who's normally very responsible, but they all of a sudden show up late for a session or they forget that there is a session or they forget that there was homework that they said they were going to do since the last session. It's like, when they are confronted with their fear, they just go into this like strange flakiness. That is not who they are. But it helps them not take those steps.
I can kind of see that when to I feel like all of these could. I mean, could we step into all these archetypes at different points?
Absolutely. So, you know, we usually have our our most preferred archetype, but I certainly have, you know, some of the victim and some of the judge and some of the others, so we can definitely step into more than one.
Kate Kordsmeier 28:34
Hey, have you ever considered using your interviews on other podcasts as core content for your own marketing strategy, and her podcast go pet yourself? My friend Angie Trueblood shares about how this unique strategy can help you create a cohesive, simple content marketing plan for your business. I love Angie's podcast and this episode talks about what pillar content is and gives practical tips on how to actually start using your interviews to create marketing content for yourself. Plus, she offers tips on how to utilize the power of partnership with podcast host to help content reach further. If this sounds good to you. I highly recommend you head over to the go pitch yourself podcast episode number 84 titled podcast interviews as pillar content and give it a listen.
Tell me about the needy one.
Yeah, so the needy one. This will show up in a client who is normally very self sufficient. It's not that they don't need any support. Obviously, all human beings need support. That's why they've hired us, but it's a person who is normally self sufficient. But when they go into fear around taking actions, they all of a sudden maybe they start sending us you know 10 emails in a row or very, very lengthy emails. They need us to hold their hand in ways that don't make sense for who they are. They feel like they need a crutch. Like they just can't do it on their own. They get very needy. Yeah.
And the jokester, I'm just going to take a stab and assume that that's just somebody who like likes to make a joke out of the situation to kind of deflect.
Absolutely, absolutely. So, exactly. It's like they start to, you know, make things funny, they make jokes, instead of being with the fear that comes up in that moment, or the shadow that comes up in that moment, or the confronting thing. In that moment. You'll see the jokester and one on one. And then a lot of times in groups, the jokester will kind of like make a joke, right, in a very serious moment, in a group where something big has just come up.
Yeah, I can see that. Tell me about the spiritual one,
The spiritual one is one of the sneakiest. Because, you know, for those of us that are spiritual, and I am there, you know, and all of these have all these archetypes have their highest expression, right, and then they're kind of not so helpful, lower expression. So the spiritual one is sneaky, because for those of us that are spiritual, you know, there's so much beauty in it. But it's when someone inadvertently is using their spirituality or spiritual concepts to avoid the fear. So as an example, let's say a deep shadow comes up. So let's say a feeling of jealousy comes up, that's important that we want to work on with our client, because that jealousy is standing in their way. The spiritual one might say, You know what, I'm all love and light. Like, I don't like to look at things like jealousy, that's not really part of my existence. So I'm not gonna look at
Is that spiritual bypassing?
Exactly. Spiritual bypassing.
Yeah. Hmm. And then you have the teacher.
Yeah, so the teacher usually comes up in groups, the teachers, the one where you're leading a group. And now whenever I lead groups, I love like, everybody shares wisdom, that's an essential part of I think group facilitation, I'm not the one on the pedestal as the leader or the teacher, everybody contributes. But what I'm talking about with the teacher is the one in the group who always tries, who give others advice, or one off the leader, or show how smart they are, or really tell others what in the group what they think they should do, or what they think is going on with them. It is a way again, of deflecting fear, either because a discomfort is coming up for them, or I'm looking at themselves, and what advice do they want to give themselves? Or what do they want to see inside of themselves, or it deflects this fear of I don't feel smart enough in this group, and I need to prove myself in some way.
And it's very interesting. And as you went through each one, I'm able to like, identify at different points, like every single one, I will say, my go to is the judge. And it's usually of myself, not of others, I can have so much grace and compassion and empathy for others. And somehow it you know, it's more work and challenging to give that to myself. I'm an astrologer. And I say that's the Virgo in me, where it's like the critical voice just living inside my head.
You're talking to a fellow Virgo. So I know. I'm kidding. I know exactly. It's so easy to give to others what we give to ourselves.
Yeah, I'm working on that. I just recently read a book called How to Talk to yourself like a Buddhist, by Cynthia Kane. And it's been phenomenal. I will say, so you see that you can harvest the gold in each archetype. I want to harvest the gold. Yeah. How did we do that?
Yeah, such a great question. So here's the thing is that there's nothing whenever we step into a part of ourselves or an energy, there's nothing inherently bad about that part, or that energy. It's just about how we use it. And there's a lot of talk in the transformational industry about getting rid of fears or getting rid of these, you know, unsavory parts of ourselves, et cetera. And actually, what I always propose is the opposite of that is we don't want to get rid of any of these parts. observe ourselves, then they just go into shadow where they fester. Every part of ourselves is an essential part of who we are. It's just that when we're not friends with them and aligned ways they command us those parts command us in not so great ways, versus us commanding that. So the more that we can actually honor and love and respect all of the parts of ourselves, including our resistance archetypes, the more that we can approach them with compassion, with curiosity, with trying to understand why they're there, how they're trying to serve us what they're trying to do for us what they need from us, then we get to pull the, you know, that, like I said, like the gold out of them, right. So maybe, for example, it's different for everybody. But maybe, for example, inside of the procrastinator is one who knows how to be spacious, one who knows how to take space for oneself instead of constantly overworking. Right? If we can harness that part of the procrastinator, so much as possible. Maybe for some people, I know this is true for me, the golden side of my particular victim is the gift of drama. And that's how I'm able to evoke drama in my groups, and you know, kind of like, have fun in certain moments, like, create drama for good, right. But when I'm not harnessing it, the victim is harnessing me with drama, that is not very helpful. Maybe inside of the judge archetype. I think this is true, I think for a lot of people that I've worked with, but gold is the skill of discernment, right? To actually know this is a good decision. That's not a good decision. This is someone I want to hang out with. That's actually not someone I want to hang out with, there is so much gold, and we know that we've hit on the gold versus the resistance archetype. When it doesn't feel like a triggering energy, like when we make that discerning decision where it's like, more of a wisdom and a matter of fact, versus we're being pulled into that vortex of energy, of judgment.
And love that there's so many things that you said, I love that you said coming from a place of curiosity. Oftentimes, we come from a place of judgment, instead of you know, just being curious, observing, asking questions, really stepping into self coaching, really, isn't it what it is, at the end of the day, we're just coaching ourselves, so. So tell me about the six step somatic process to navigate resistance?
Yeah, so I'll share it quickly. There's obviously a lot to each step. But so the first step always goes back to those energetics that I was talking about, like you cannot do anything, you cannot help your clients with this. If as a practitioner, you are feeling again, like you're not good enough, like they're not good enough. Also, if you are scared or worried about your clients resistance archetype, if you feel as a practitioner, that something has gone wrong, that it's because you're a bad coach or practitioner, that this resistance has come up, you know, if you don't know that it is just a normal, natural byproduct of fear, then energetics are going to be off. So that's step one is really align the energetics come from a place of love and compassion, and honoring and curiosity for yourself, for your client.
I love that.
Yeah, it's just everything flows from there. The next step is creating awareness. So you want to have skills and I teach my students for each of the archetypes, there's a little bit of a different way that you want to create awareness for that archetype. And you want to be skilled at it because or else the archetype will go, the client will go into shame, right? So you don't want to just create, for example, awareness on the victim archetype by saying like, I think you're acting like a victim to your client, that's not a good way to support a client to be aware that something is happening for them. You want to be able to use the right reflections the right words or ask the right questions, so that a client is able to receive the Oh airness that they're actually not in their highest self, they're not in their full power, but they're kind of in a defense mechanism. Because you want to create awareness, that's step two, as you create the awareness, you also want to normalize, normalizing in all of coaching, but particularly when you're working with resistance is vital. So normalizing, what it essentially means is letting your client know that there's nothing wrong about them or about the process or this doesn't mean they don't have the ability to create what they want, there's just not it is normal to go into resistance. I heard recently Brene Brown say that the opposite of shaming is normalizing. And I just love that it's so important. Normalizing also, you know, sometimes means letting your client know that that happens to you, whatever it is, so we want to normalize. From there, you know, and we're using our coaching skills on along the way, seeing what's resonating, you know, all of those pieces. But from there, once we've normalized, then the way I like to describe it is once we create awareness and normalize, we're already starting to poke holes into the resistance archetype, it can start to soften a little bit, it doesn't have to defend the fear so much. Because it's being seen, it's being named, it's being loved. It doesn't have to so strongly, like do the job that it's been doing. So from there, you have some choices, but usually the next step is to cognitively first, support your client to see where else does this resistance archetype show up for them, and how has it impacted them. And what has the history of this pattern been creating awareness on that history on that pattern on where it comes from maybe who modeled it for them, where they learned it, it provides so much valuable information that allows even if you were to end the process right there and not do the last two steps, just with that information alone, a client could go back into their lives and start to notice when they step into the resistance archetype, and start to call themselves out because of it, because they've got all of this beautiful awareness. Now, step five, is the actual somatic process, which, you know, it takes me a while to train practitioners, I won't go into all of the pieces, but we don't only what I'll say is we don't only want to work, cognitively with resistances, or fears or shadows. Yes, so much happens in the mind. But we feel our fears and our body, they're connected to our nervous systems, we hold different resistances and fears and shadows in our bodies. So we want to work not just cognitively but also somatically. For a client to what I always like to say is what a big piece of what the technique is about, is to get regulated with fears that have previously caused this regulation, to get regulated in our bodies with fears that generally like trigger us, put us into fight or flight Baner, freeze, etc. So we're supporting a client to connect with the resistance and connect with the fear in ways where they can really not get rid of the fear or the resistance but hold it alongside with their grounded selves, and bodies. And then the last step after all that work is to strategize. Okay, what do you want to do next? What's a different action you want to take? How do you want to move?
Oh, my goodness, I love it. I love it. Kate and myself both practice EFT as well. So I 100% know that we hold our emotions in our bodies. And it's just as equally important as working with the mind to let go and release and transmute that. So thank you for that. That is amazing. Is there something that I didn't ask that you would want our listeners to know?
I don't think so. I feel like we covered so much. I mean, I think the one thing is I know for a lot of practitioners, it can sometimes feel scary to go to these places and address these things with clients. It's so much easier to just be like, Oh, they're just in judgment or that you know, whatever the archetype is and to kind of just bypass it or, you know, just kind of try to push them into action. And I just want to Yeah, I think just the piece that I want to say is, whenever we bypass the resistance archetypes or just try to push the client into action, or decide, oh, this client isn't coachable, that's another thing that can happen, oh, this client just isn't coachable. You know, that's never going to lead to what we want and what we want for our clients and what they want for themselves. It'll just lead to client frustration, or to us losing clients, or to us not feeling good about the work we're doing. So be willing to do the courageous work of supporting clients with their resistance archetypes.
Yeah, it seems like it's also a lot of internal work.
It is, yes,
This has been amazing. I've learned so much. So I'm excited for our listeners, as they go through all this as well, we have come to the lightning round. So this is the part of the interview where I'm just going to quickly ask you some questions and whatever comes up, that is the correct answer. So the first thing is, what's your favorite way to make time for self care while running your own business?
I love that question. I am a big journaler. And I do ritual. So I've got like my little altar set in the side of my bedroom, and I make time to do all the work we're talking about today, do my journaling, pull my cards, do my rituals. That's what kind of keeps me in check and makes me feel spacious.
I love that I do that as well. I love that. What is one tool or strategy that you use to help with time management
Blueprinting, I call it blueprinting. So the beginning of every month, and I do paper and pen, I don't do it on the computer, I write my big goals for the month. And then after that, I write out all of the action steps I need to take to achieve those goals. This is my Virgo, and then I write the date. I look at my calendar for the month and I write what date am I going to take each of those action steps and that way? Every week, I know exactly my action steps for the week, every morning when I wake up, I don't have to be overwhelmed, or how am I going to get things done? I know what the actions are for the day. And I just work the blueprint
I love that. I think this is I mean, we do something similar, but I think I've never heard it referred to as blueprint before. What's the most powerful business mindset or entrepreneurial book that you've ever read? This is the one that you reference over and over again, and it's made the biggest difference in your life?
Oh gosh, that's a hard question. pressure in the moment, I may have to skip it because my Peri menopausal brain is not able to answer that. Sure. Sure.
Well, I know just from the interview that you're Brene Brown fanwe are as well, the team is as well. So let's talk about mindset. What's your favorite quote or mantra or affirmation when things get tough and you feel like giving up?
I mean, I go back to I know, I didn't make this quota. But I've been using it for years, I really go back to the energy follows energy. It's true not just with clients, but with myself. So when I'm stuck or in resistance, I asked myself, what's the energy that I want to be showing up with right now? Because I know that's going to lead my actions.
I love that I think I'm going to borrow that from you. And then finally, you're in the Success with Soul podcast. So what does Success with Soul mean to you?
I love that. To me, it's not about achieving the biggest goals or creating empires, if that's not what's aligned for me, but it's about achieving the goals that feel right for me in any given moment. That helped me feel like I am not only on purpose and making impact, but also giving myself the time and the space to enjoy all of it. I love that.
And finally, where can our audience connect with you and find you?
Yeah, so you can connect with me. I am on Instagram there. Not a lot. But at Joanna Lindenbaum, and on Facebook, and my website is applieddepthinstitute.com.
Great. It has been a pleasure to have you on the podcast. I personally have learned so much. And I appreciate you. Thank you so much.
Thanks so much for having me. I've loved this conversation.
Have a great day, Joanna, you too.
Kate Kordsmeier 49:58
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