010: Instagram Metrics That Matter in 2020 with Manu Muraro

Kate Kordsmeier 0:00

Welcome to Episode 10 of the Success with Soul podcast. I'm your host Kate Kordsmeier. And today we are chatting with my friend Manu Marrero. Manu is a fellow atlantan and the founder of your social team, which helps brands and entrepreneurs use Instagram to connect more with people and get more customers and clients. Now I personally had so many questions from a new because Instagram is basically the bane of my existence. And I am totally one of those people who is always whining about the algorithm, always frustrated with my reach and engagement. And menino really helped bring me back down to earth and figure out what's truly important. So Manu knows her stuff. She has taught over 100 classes and workshops. She's created several online trainings. She's got a membership program. And in fact, one of the best little known secrets about Manu is that her biggest corporate dream client actually found her on Instagram when she only had 500 followers. So we are talking all about why engagement is so much more important than followers, which engagement metrics matter most. Hint, Hint, it is not likes reach or impressions, and how to create the ultimate super posts to supercharge your Instagram efforts and put more money into your pocket. Let's do it. You're listening to the Success with Soul podcast with Kate Kordsmeier x journalists turned CEO of a multi six figure blog in online business. But it wasn't that long ago that Kate was a struggling entrepreneur who lacked confidence, clarity and let's be honest money, but all those failures experiments and lessons helped Kate create a thriving business that impacts thousands and brings freedom, flexibility and fulfillment to her life. If you're ready to do the same and make something happen with holistic, soulful, step by step strategies from Kate and other experts, you're in the right place. here's your host, writer, educator, Mom, recovering perfectionist, bookworm and sushi connoisseur Kate Kordsmeier. Before we jump into today's episode, I'd love to share another listener spotlight with y'all. This one comes from a slump, who says smart, organized and motivating. I recently started following Kate and her various endeavors to learn how to create my own blog in business. She sparked energy into her followers and listeners, she provides clear step by step tips and infuses everything with realness and positivity. Can't wait to hear more on the podcast episodes. Whoa That just warms my heart You have no idea how much that means. In fact, if you're listening now please send me a DM on Instagram at Kate Kordsmeier. As I've got a special surprise gift I'd like to share with you as a thank you. And if you'd like to be featured in a future listener spotlight, head on over to iTunes Apple podcasts to leave a review. Your reviews are super helpful and motivating to me personally. But beyond that the reviews help with rankings, which helps others find the show and allows me to keep providing you with free content every single week. I hope to feature you on a listener spotlight soon.

minute, thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited to chat with you.

Manu Muraro 3:48

Thanks, Kate. I'm super excited to be here.

Kate Kordsmeier 3:50

Yeah. So let's just start kind of with the cliche opener of tell everybody who you are and what you do and like your story.

Manu Muraro 4:00

I'm a highly awarded millionaire and I'm just kidding.

My name is Manu Muraro I am a marketer strategist. And my business is your social team, in which I focus on Instagram training for businesses, and enterpreneurs as well, but also a lot of things that overlap with it. So I talked about some of the things you talk about, you know, growing your newsletter and your audience and E courses and selling and things like that. So for me, it's everything that income pass helping businesses, you know, grow with, no, I don't mean like I really don't focus on like, growing numbers of followers and growing you know, I want to grow money in the bank.

I say that my favorite vanity metric is money in the bank. So

Kate Kordsmeier 4:50

I love that because it's not always apples to apples more followers does not always equal more money. And yeah, so we're going to get into all of that. I'm really Excited to dig in. I've got tons of Instagram questions for you. So I think one of the most important things to note about Instagram in particular, and all social media really is that it's obviously constantly changing. Yeah. And what's hot and most important to focus on now is maybe not the same as what it was a year ago. So this episode we're recording in March, and it's going live in June. So I'm getting prepped for maternity leave. We're doing a little bit in advance. But if you could answer like what is most important to focus on Instagram and summer? 2020?

Manu Muraro 5:38

Yes. Well, to me, it's definitely engagement. And I have been focusing on engagement while because we know especially when it comes to Instagram, we tend to want to grow right, we want more followers. But I mean, if you think of businesses, any marketing research and all that the people that are keeping us in business are not the new people. Right people that already bought from us or even if you're not a business that people buy to constantly, like one of my big clients is an Airbnb. Like, people don't go to the same Airbnb all the time, you know, right. But they're the ones sending their friends. Right? Oh, it's always your most loyal fans and customers that they're, I mean, I don't I did not come prepared to the research here. But it's something like they're five times more valuable than someone new.

Yeah. So that

engage with your audience and growing engagement on Instagram assures that these loyal fans and your core audience that people that are actually making your business grow and generating revenue for you are seeing your messages in a higher priority. Right. Okay, algorithm. So that's the real thing. It's just really like having an engaged audience because and then that goes for anyone you know, because if you say, oh, but no influencers are still being hired today by the number of followers they have, which is silly. But it's still true. Many people are just asking that even when sometimes they know that what matters is engagement. They're like, Oh, we need influencers with 50,000 followers. And that's when people go and buy followers or they do silly things like loop giveaways for finding fun. Yeah. And that kind of stuff is gonna make them just piss off their loyal customers who are buying from them are buying from their brand partners, you know, an influencer? Because at the end of the day, I think it's the same strategy to everyone. But if you have an engaged audience, it's actually like, when you do a collaboration with someone or you're doing allowance or you're selling your own thing, you are going to see a much higher percentage of sales and you know, are people subscribing to your newsletter? and things like that if you actually have an engaged audience that are used to talking to you and you're really giving value to all the time,

Kate Kordsmeier 7:52

right? Yeah, I think that's so important to note that nurturing your current people is so much more important than chasing

Manu Muraro 8:01

To about not being apples to apples like I've literally had a client that was in a nonprofit in a statewide nonprofit in a small states saying that Oh, but she can make her account look as pretty as so and souls account which is like a fashion influencer a very, not lifestyle, you know, number I can compare ourselves to the accounts that we like or that we find pretty, because that doesn't mean anything. Right? It's very different for everybody, the little nonprofit organization in New Jersey or whatever, you know, does not need to have 10s of thousands of followers. Right? And is going to have so I think we get in that frustration of just trying to search for those numbers that don't add anything to us. It doesn't even make sense. Like, if you see the small I don't know like I try to grow my account. And I've been growing my accounts pretty aggressively, like, obviously organically in the past specially in the past year as I launched my online side of the business, because before when I started, I was a small social media boutique agency. So I could have like, seven clients at a time. I need 10s of thousands of people, right? I don't know. So and I yeah, I really try to tell people that not every business need the same amount of followers. It's you can be successful on Instagram with last, my biggest corporate clients that has been with me for two years, with my highest level projects found me on Instagram and I had 500 followers. Yeah, we met them.

Kate Kordsmeier 9:44

So I mean, I think that's such a good point. I have two Instagram accounts right now. We have the wellness blog, Root + Revel and we have 47,000 followers there and then my personal brand Kate Kordsmeier has like 3000 followers and the answer engagement on Kate Kordsmeier is so much higher more people see my stuff more people engage with my stuff

Manu Muraro 10:05

in total numbers are in percentage total numbers okay that's interesting. Yeah. So because I was going to say percentages mall account is always more engaged than right

Kate Kordsmeier 10:19

no like literally more people watch my stories on kk than they do on

Unknown Speaker 10:25

Root + Revel and it's good because you have the option to you know, cross promote and everything but I would say that is your personal account Did you just start using debt for business like more recently than the other one

Kate Kordsmeier 10:39

I had before I started my business before I started routing rebel, I just had an Instagram account that was just my name. And then once I started routing rebel, I stopped posting on my personal account and only I've just posted everything to route and rebel. And then last fall, I launched the second piece part of my business. And so I started using my personal account, I switched it to a business account. Okay. And then I started using that for this second brand. And so now I'm posting to both places, but more like my personal stuff goes on my personal brand. And

Manu Muraro 11:16

yeah, even though I know this happens sometimes because I mean many options, probably in your kk account, it's people that know you better and they're closer to you. So the engagement is always higher. So I compare that to like having a party if you are having your 20 best friends, they all know each other, you'll know them very well, you know, their parents and you know, you have this deeper connection. They help clean up after the party, but then if you have a party for like 1000 people, you don't even know everybody that is in your house. Right? Right. It's the same as acting and they don't really care that much if they like treat your house nicely, like you know, the same idea when you have such a big audience compared to a smaller, more engaging audience, but also a lot of accounts that have started years and years ago, will have higher numbers of When did you start the rebel account? 2015. Okay, so that's like a five year old account accounts that started around there or even earlier, like, a lot of times they will have a huge engagement, because at that point in time, there aren't that many quality accounts. Yeah, over a really fast and then what happens is that, you know, like that audience from five years ago may have changed their interests and you know, just kind of be a little bit disengaged.

Kate Kordsmeier 12:39

That makes sense. So speaking of engagement, then instead of asking the question of how can we get more followers, let's talk about how can we improve our engagement. So what are some tips you have for that?

Manu Muraro 12:51

So I definitely talk a lot about, it's silly, how deep I'm going to go into this. The journey you take your follower or anyone visiting your post, from the moment they're scrolling, until they click on your Lincoln bio, there's like seven steps to it.

Kate Kordsmeier 13:10

Okay, so what are the steps and I'm going

Manu Muraro 13:13

to sometimes I missed the count, and I'm like, Oh, that was just six. But if the steps are, people have to stop this girl. So the image needs to speak to them enough that they stop this girl because they have millions of posts waiting for them to look at them won't even get to the bottom of so. And a lot of times that image, you know, like, I can put a really great tip or even say I have something for free. If it's just a picture of me sitting in my office, people might not even see what I'm offering. Uh huh. I'm using a lot of text in my images lately, and that, I mean, that's a change. I never did that like a year ago. There's not one piece of text in my interesting, my bowl my feeds, and I really liked it. Command people do that now. Because when people see that topic that they really care about, they would stop the scroll.

Kate Kordsmeier 14:06

Okay, that's good. Now I'm gonna let me know

that this is really big, it's a huge it's, it's makes a huge difference.

Manu Muraro 14:14

So they have to stop this girl, they have to start reading your caption. So if your caption is like starts with a big setup, and you don't talk to them, don't give them the good stuff until the end of their caption. They don't read it. Right? So you have to treat the beginning of your captions because I don't know if you notice there's a more button in the caption on Instagram. And the More button is to be like five lines now. So no more two. Now it's two. Yeah. When I saw that change, and that's not even something that they is the audio Okay. Oh, yeah, it's fine.

Kate Kordsmeier 14:52

It's a little bit. It's okay.

It's real life. No worries.

means we get it Oh my gosh.

Manu Muraro 15:01

So, um, when people saw the More button used to be on the fifth line, and now it's on the second line down, and when I saw that change, and this is one of the innumerous changes that Instagram doesn't even tell people about because there's so many going on at the same time. So when I saw that, because of what I do, I totally got why it's because people complain that no one sees their posts. So they're looking to scroll shorter. So people were less scrolling.

Kate Kordsmeier 15:32

Yeah. And they know you have to capture people's attention in one sentence contents.

Manu Muraro 15:37

Yes. Because usually, like they're pretty short. So one sentence is kind of like, you know, until the, the more buttons so a lot of times I actually put little titles or little leads on like, posts. I'm like big Instagram update or like, blah, blah, blah, engagement tip and then I talk about it,

Kate Kordsmeier 15:54

right? Like headlining your posts. Yeah. To grab that attention.

Manu Muraro 16:00

line in a lot of times, and I've been doing that even before the More button change because I felt like people are not reading captions that much. And I used to do like, one emoji, little title, same emoji. And it's just kind of like one, you know, thing that is easy to look at. So that's step two, okay, that they need to get them. I forgot if I count a like as a step two or something, because then people usually look at your image, they stop the throne, they already like it, and then they move on, you know? Yeah. Then they read your beginning of your caption, step two, step three is that they click on the mark button to read the whole caption. Okay, and then they engage with it, whether it's like comments or a share, and then step, so I am totally skipping steps. Okay, but those are the things you have to take them through. And then the other one is when they decide to they engage, they share it with their friends, which is really the best thing that you wants today is that people share two stories. Okay. And then once they do that, and I'll talk a little more about that, if you yeah, Want to hear, because once people share comments or do something like that or save, then that's when they read your call to action which hopefully you have one in your post. And that's when they click by do whatever you tell them to do jump three times, whatever you tell them to do. So that's that'll be the last step to actually you know, we'll go and purchase something from you.

Kate Kordsmeier 17:30

And so when when you say call to action, Do you sometimes sometimes the call to action like double tap If you agree, or do you have them do something more specific like go to this site? You know, go to my site, click the link. I know

Manu Muraro 17:45

so yeah, lots of clicking the link in bio I try to always so I think in my marketing regardless of just Instagram, I should definitely do their Instagram but in blog posts like don't you put like another blog post for people to read in the bottom like that you always want To offer the option for those who want to keep going with you to keep going with you, right? Or you're always taking them to the next place, whether if they want to go, that's great. Then you take them to the next one, you know? Yeah. And but if you are always doing posts that are just more lifestyle and doubletap, if you agree, which is cute, but it's a lot of times, people don't really respond to those. Yeah. So I much rather like I'm all forgiving people tell people what to do. I think if when you remind people of saving a post or share with friends, like you would be blown away by the numbers, if the content is worth sharing and is worth saving.

Kate Kordsmeier 18:43

Yeah. But yeah, and I'm gonna start doing the share with a friend too, because then we don't do that. Why is that better? That they share?

Manu Muraro 18:53

Yeah, so remember, like, when people do giveaways and stuff or they used to I think people are kind of slowing down the giveaways Luckily, because it just became a little overwhelming, like became a little bit of a cheat that thing i think i think it's still okay to do a giveaway here and there by yourself not teaming up with 10 people. But it's better to just do them. Whenever like, you know, like, you have your course you can do a giveaway of a course that's fine. But try not to just do it for growing. But when we did the giveaways back in the day, we're always telling people to tag a friend. Right? Right. Like that was the best thing for us if people tag the friend because they have one of our friends senior content, right will share posts two stories, they potentially have 1000 friends senior content,

Kate Kordsmeier 19:37

and that makes sense.

Manu Muraro 19:39

Or it could be 20 you know, depending on how much views that story get. But I remember one time that I did a like I did a little I was giving like free Instagram reveals like I have this really quick review that I give and I was giving free reveals for the first hundred people that shared the stories and that same day and this Almost a year ago or more, I gained like 450 followers. Wow, that's from people sharing stories. Yeah, that's great. They're just stories is the most the best way to grow an audience that cares for your your content because people are giving a little sample of your content to their friends. Right? Exactly. People see their content and they go and see the rest of your content they decide to follow you. That's a true targeted follower.

Kate Kordsmeier 20:35

Right?

Manu Muraro 20:36

I love the save so much like saving.

I am constantly changing my own strategy. But my strategy is a lot about creating content that is the highest performer that I can get which talks about the the engagement strategies too, but because when you do that people share friends. And that's when you get the real targeted audience to follow, which is awesome. Right?

Kate Kordsmeier 21:04

And have you found like, in my just personal experience, I feel like people used to like and comment so much more than they do now that even though my reach might even be growing, but people are not engaging in that way, as much as I do find that the case to or is maybe this I'm

Manu Muraro 21:24

a specific example. No, it is the case of everyone Of course, like this is what I do full time. So I have a little advantage on people. However, I feel like people don't adapt their strategy enough.

Kate Kordsmeier 21:36

Yeah, I know you have this line on your website that I highlighted. It says most people complaining they can't use Instagram to grow their businesses are the same ones who haven't changed their strategy in a year.

Manu Muraro 21:47

Yes, thank you. I didn't remember I wrote that. Yeah, no, that but it's something that I really think because even if you've seen my my contents changed completely in the last three months and never I had higher engagement than I do now. So from what I've seen, and what I that doesn't come from it comes from experience does not come from research, but I have a membership. So I look at all the accounts and what my members are doing. And it's a pretty good sample of people to see this. So, what happens is that people are, it's not that they don't see our posts is that we have our audiences are a lot pickier. Or how would you say that in a nicer way more demanding, like, you know, because they have so much content out there. Mm hmm. You know, like when your husband is a really good cook like you want him to go to a nicer restaurant, right? At home, it's the same thing. Like there's so much content for them, that they're not going to stop unless it's something original, exciting, very relatable, that adds value to them. Because the time where just pretty pictures would perform is behind us, right like Yeah. So and that's why like that people don't engage as much. It's because they're really much more selective as to what they engage with, because there's so much out there,

right?

And a lot of accounts are similar to each other, or they don't see right away, when I'm talking about the seven or whatever number of steps to take them through. We need to observe how people use Instagram, you know, because literally, if people are not reading the captions, you cannot just put a picture of yourself and then right and I do that sometimes, because our pictures need to be there. Right? So it's not like I'm saying, don't do that. I'm just saying understand what performs and what doesn't perform. I was doing a post about a conference, which was now postponed, obviously, for a friend or someone that I partner with a lot, which is Morgan from ATL girl gang. And she texted me She's like, Oh, can you help me do a post for the conference? Blah, blah. I'm like, yeah, we used to do a conference together, you know? So she's like, oh, I'm taking some photos of merge. I'm like, No, instead of that, let's do it text photos. So I look at one that she had done in the past for her conference. It was about early bird. So it didn't really apply. So we kind of brainstorm for a second, like, what, how should we should rephrase that. And we did a little post that said, Good things come to those who weights and the weights is scratch, then it says network. Hmm. And because that was cute and relatable, like, I got a lot more engagement than even my average. Uh huh. So she got a lot more eyes looking at that post, then we just have used a really cute picture of some of the March.

Kate Kordsmeier 24:37

Right? And I feel like a lot of times those those cute, relatable quotes and text things, too are easier to share. Because people like oh, that resonated with me. I'm going to share that worries, but your caption might resonate, but they're not going to share the picture of me on their stories.

Manu Muraro 24:57

Who are you? Yeah, and then I think the The thing about engagement is that most people feel like they're in the dark when they're creating content, right? They're like, I have no idea I post something I think it's gonna do well, it doesn't, then I do another post and I think it's not going to do well and it does well, so I don't even know. So I'm like, If only we had something called insights.

So seriously, like all the answer to engagement is in insights.

Kate Kordsmeier 25:28

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that you look at and say, so my goal when I look at insights, and I have this thing that are called Super posts? Yeah, that

Manu Muraro 26:51

I had a question about that. So I want to hear that. So the Super Bowls is basically like, I mean, we do that if everything else in our lives right, let's see. Say that you have a party I'm not even going to use like genetic modification because I get really creepy when I talk about this. We have a party we're um, we're still stuck at home on talk about parties today. Now, right? If you have a party and your word is dress in a party and you've got so many compliments, but your hair was down that day, but then another party, when is your hair up? You've got so many compliments about your hair and this other party they were this pink lipstick. You've got so many compliments about your pink lipstick. So you're like I'm gonna get where'd the dress that gets compliment with a hairstyle that gets compliment with a pink lipstick that gets compliments. Right? Not just the day I got the most compliments. I'm actually going to get all the different aspects in which I got compliment and I'm going to be like, amazing. Yeah. So that's the same idea of Super Bowls. So instead of just going to our insights and look about engagement or reach, I don't care for reach or impressions By the way, they could be a very quick scroll that no one even saw your content. Okay, that's no good numbers because they're big numbers. But it doesn't mean that people saw what you wrote or they cared about it at all. It doesn't mean anything just means it wasn't someone screaming at some point. Uh huh. So instead of looking at number of photo engagement, which by the way, engagement for Instagram, is for Instagram insights, is likes, comments and saves. Okay? So it's that total when you look at engagement or your insights, it's the total of likes, comments and saves. However, my favorite form of engagement is day is like someone to click on my website or someone else do you know, but then the other one would be someone to share with their friends. A new toy Instagram just put their little airplane on their photo, not long ago, you know, right. So those are not even counted on engagement. So I much rather look at everything separately. Because I feel when people like a photo, it's usually the image or the photo. Mm hmm. But I feel like when they comment, I mean a lot. Sometimes they come in because of that image too. And they're gonna make a comment about that image. But a lot of times when they comment is because of what you were talking about. In not as musically like, what the picture looked like,

Kate Kordsmeier 29:13

right? So they're commenting because they, it's more the caption resonated with

Manu Muraro 29:18

them. They're thinking about this topic, whether it's a photo of me or whether it's like a little graphic that is kind of giving an idea what the topic is. So when you look at those things separately, and you combine them, you start getting a super post. Okay. And I would also look at definitely look at saves as well. I mean, if you want to focus on engagement engagement, as Instagram calls it, it's, it's likes, comments and saves, but I like looking at shares a lot and I like looking at which posts got followers from the post. I didn't know you could see that and see that. Yeah, you can see that on insights on Instagram insights. It's one of the tabs that you can there's a lot more options there now than there used to be. So it's one of the tabs that you can select. But also you can see that in the actual photo, of course, if you're looking at it, the actual photo, you can really tell the difference between the other ones, right? You know, you just hit that one, the metric for that one went under the each image, there's an insights view inside. So when you click, there's like a half little screen that comes up. But a lot of people don't know that you can just swipe up and see a lot more. Okay. And then there's the number of people follow you from that post. So I usually look at those if one post is doing really well. If I see a lot of likes and comments from one post, then I go and look at that. Both insights just to see how many people followed where they came from. There's a lot of good information there. So I like looking at the image and not just one type of image saying like, Oh, this one is my top performer. Just look at it. I just look for patterns. Every time I'm looking my engagement or my insights, and Instagram analytics. Someone doesn't know that because it's a confusing name. I think inside. So I like looking at the likes, because the likes to me kind of give me an idea of what types of images that you know you should be using. And the cool thing about it is that with the loving looking at likes and the images is very easy to look because the images are right there. When you want to learn comments, you have to go and click on each post to see what you talked about, right? Or how you ask that question. But it's totally worth digging in a little deeper. And then look at shares look at saves. What kind of posts usually for me saves is when I'm teaching something that has multiple steps, right? Because one step people learned they don't need to save it. Right. But if you're telling something and I mean, of course that's not this would apply to you do not apply to me but like a recipe, right? I was just a workout or something like that, that has multiple steps like make sense that people are something that people are going to use multiple times. But if it's just one thing if you just say to people Oh, I don't know if Like a fitness person that says to people if you don't have gym equipment in your house, grab two bags of rice or whatever. Yeah, you heard that once. You don't need to save that, right?

Kate Kordsmeier 32:09

But here's 10 swaps for way equipment that you can use at home

Manu Muraro 32:14

yeah or even this is the sequence that you do twice a week or whatever that is twice a year. It's me horrible. But when you look at things like that, you're like okay, I need to save this and then when you feel like you're writing one of those posts right save this save this post for when you're working out next or just say save this post. I think my post today said like I said, like saved is the very used to telling them to save a post and it has multiple steps. Yeah, but it's hilarious to see and I and hilarious is not it's amusing to see that, you know, you may get some saves naturally just having that content because people realize they want to go back to but also I feel like people are more Instagram savvy are the ones that are very like saving boats and using the same post I think people that are more intermediate, they're not always thinking of that. So once I started telling people to save my posts, I have posts that I have as many saves as likes. Wow, yeah, it's insane. Yeah, I have like multiple, I think my highest. I mean, my average of likes that I get right now is like 350, maybe 300 to 350. This week has been kind of bad because people are concerned and things are weird. But usually, like, that's my average. If it's lower than that. I mean, I don't sweat it because I know that some content like not every content is going to be a super post or perform really well. And that's okay. You can always reshare that same content again, as you should anyway, but I had content that I was just giving them numbers for like reference. I had posts that had been saved over 1000 times. Wow. Do you feel like that leads to tangible results in your business? Like, can you we said, you can't really equate followers to? Yeah, I don't think it's immediate. But I think people are more, they're going to go back to your account more often they're going to remember you later. And so it's definitely a good thing. People are putting a lot of hyping saves once like likes, we're kind of not being public anymore. Only I feel like 25% of the people in the US don't see the number of likes.

Kate Kordsmeier 34:28

And my sometimes shows them and sometimes

Manu Muraro 34:30

I told my husband never shows. So yeah, but it doesn't really matter. Like when people talked about this, it's like, again, it's the vanity metric that I really don't care about. It's like, I've 100 people like my comments and you see my post, and it's the most important for my business and they go in and take my call to action, whatever, I'm super happy. I don't care if you don't see it. Right, it changes nothing, you know, right. So people start putting a lot of hype in saves.

Kate Kordsmeier 35:00

And saves, but then

Manu Muraro 35:01

yeah, it's not as beneficial as shares. But it is something that people go back to so.

Kate Kordsmeier 35:07

So the other thing that I feel like people talk about a lot, too, is engagement. But on the other side of you need to engage with other accounts, use the platform. So where do you feel like how important is engaging with other people's content versus posting your own content?

Manu Muraro 35:25

Yeah, I think they're two separate completely separate things. So I do feel that and you know, like, again, like I one of my things is sanity, because I work with a lot of people that are like the two of us like a solopreneur that has a few people helping here and there, whatever. And I think you are right. Or you have like full time. I have a couple full time. Yeah, sir. A little. You're a little ahead of me on that one. But I work with a lot of people like us very limited resources. Sometimes they're doing their own Instagram most of the time. So to me, it's not like it depends on what we do like you and I are working with our laptops over Computers you know with our phones, a lot of people are like, I don't know like cooking at a restaurant or during Thunder that they cannot be on. You know that all the time or they're like all day taking appointments in a beauty salon that cutting hair, they cannot be on their Instagram all the time. So I tell people that it's not all or nothing you don't all need to go for engagement. A lot of people can just use Instagram as portfolio or as a as a website because people are already on Instagram. So people recommend you again with the R mo our biggest customers are like our most likely to to keep us in business and generate revenue for us. So when people recommend you to others, if they say oh, it's gravel and Instagram, people are going to look at it right away. They might even just follow you and look at it later and know right on the spot. But if people just say Oh, it's written Ravel calm, check out our website, you know, people might forget by the time they get home unless They're really into it, they they really need what you have. People are not really going to check. So Instagram is a place there already are.

Kate Kordsmeier 37:07

Right?

Manu Muraro 37:08

Right stop by that other store in the mall. You're right in, you know exactly how people can use it just for that to just to create a portfolio, in which case, they can even do one of those full grids. That has like, the image is kind of divided and they're more like ours. I think for daddy works. But if you're trying to get engagement on the daily or when or as often as you post, like that does make sense to to do something like that. So yeah, I'd say if,

Kate Kordsmeier 37:37

is there an amount of time or a type of engagement like have you said, everybody if you can spend 20 minutes a day, doing X on other people's accounts.

Manu Muraro 37:49

So what I tell people and I think the time of day, it's really hard to measure because some people would spend 30 minutes just putting hearts and no one will care about it like no one will grant They are, right. But so what I recommend to people and to be a little more strategic about this is to think of like, five to 10 accounts, whatever you can do, because I'm also like, I don't like giving the same numbers and the same things to each person because everybody is different. You know, the time we have is different. I tell people to use times that you're waiting, not so much time for yourself when you're taking a break, take a break, don't get on Instagram to engage, like, just enjoy. But if you're waiting, you know for a meeting to start and you're just sitting there or if you're waiting on a doctor's appointment, you know, things like that, or carwash, whatever. Like that's the perfect time to get on Instagram, and engage with everybody engage with your followers. Of course, you're engaging back with the people that comment on your stuff, but go check their stuff to like, I wouldn't go necessarily Oh, you're a girl and that's your name that it's there. So I think it's okay, but like, if we're like a brand and people don't know who's behind that brand, I wouldn't go and like snoop on people's personal pages. Just, uh huh, necessarily, you know, because that's can be even a little creepy. But if you are like, there's a lot of people that follow you that are a business that they're a blogger, and they have like a kind of a, you know, personal brand profile, like those people, you should go there and engage with them as well. Yeah, you know, I don't like the idea of pods, then, like a group that people just have to engage with each other because it's fake engagement. People thought he helped the algorithm it doesn't do the algorithm works at the way like he gives me the content I engage with the most. So when you use a pod, you're only in a higher rank for the people in the pod. Right? So does that make any sense? So I'm all against that, but I'm very pro building your community kind of organically and naturally. So it is about supporting other people because they're going to support us but if you kind of need direction, don't even know where to start. I would say make a list of like 10 accounts that you're target audience would go to, and try to think past your competitors. Okay, different industries like it could be, I don't know, like a restaurant, you know, it could be a coffee shop, or it could be a co working space, it could be so many things, especially those community accounts. And when you go do that, one thing that I've been recommending to people is that instead of going there, and just comment on their posts, unless you have something exciting to say about something, like just talk to people, like you're actually in person talking to them. But I also recommend that and more novel idea would be to instead of just commenting on a post, comment on a person's comment on a person's comment, okay, so if I went to, if I decided that I was going to go to your page, yes. And then I'm going to see who commented on this post and I'm going to comment to their comments. So answered them, like talk to edge to something that they're talking about. Okay, that's the better relationship and you Still commenting on the posts, so your name is still there, your clickable name is still there. But you're talking to a person add value to a person that, you know, my go check you out and my become a contact.

Kate Kordsmeier 41:14

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that seems like a good way also to more organically grow your followers in a way that could be actually, well, instead of no

Manu Muraro 41:25

and I just say this, if there's more people listening, I wouldn't be worried about you. But it's important to remind people also to not go into their competitors and just start showing all their knowledge like don't do that, you know, if you're going to your competitors just go to support them. I have a few people that do similar things that I do, and we really support each other. There's a girl, she's in Perth, Australia, and she does what I do through and she reached out to me one time and dm she's like, hey, from another Instagram trainer in Australia, and we just engage on each other. She shares Something that I said I said something she said sometimes like, it's okay, you know? Yeah, we don't need to be all like in this fierce competition because everybody brings different things to the table. But at the same time, like, it wouldn't be the best to just go to a competitor's page and start talking about your thing. Like, I had that happen to it. It's just, I kind of don't care, but it also it's just silly makes the person look silly. Yeah, you know, someone comes to my Instagram. They're like, I tell my Instagram students isn't isn't bad. It's someone I never talked to before. Right? It was the if it was broke, it'd be totally fine, but it's someone that I never met. So just kind of have to kind of, you know, yeah, it feels a little sleazy or so. Yeah, I need to be in check. Exactly. So one thing

Kate Kordsmeier 42:48

that I've struggled with and I'd love to get your take on and i know i think this should apply to a lot of other accounts to his, for example, on our route and rebel Instagram account. We have tons of followers I know you're saying reach isn't as important, but sometimes I am like, how can we have 47,000 followers and Instagram only showed this post to 500. So Instagram

Manu Muraro 43:11

is showing the post to all 47,000 if they want to see it, Instagram is not hiding any posts from anyone.

Kate Kordsmeier 43:19

So why then would the reach say 500?

Manu Muraro 43:23

Because they don't check their phones. They don't check Instagram long enough. Their reach is whoever scrolled past or your post. Okay. So most people are either I mean, some people might not even use that account anymore. Some people might not be seen it and some people like you know, people went on the follow rush, I call it the follow rush. Instead of the Gold Rush, that they just start following it and following everybody for follow.

Kate Kordsmeier 43:50

Yeah. And then there was a few years ago, that hollow hollow thing was huge to control

Manu Muraro 43:57

so people have now $3,000 Or people have 3000 accounts they follow. So clearly they cannot get to the bottom. All right, oh, to see all of our content. So this is what's happening. Instagram is not hiding any of our posts from anyone like this is not how the algorithm works. Actually, if you get to the bottom of your scroll, it says you're all caught up.

Kate Kordsmeier 44:20

I've never seen that in like 100 accounts and I've never gotten there.

Manu Muraro 44:26

Yeah, a bit because we don't have the time to scroll through all of them. You know, imagine if like, these hundred accounts that are following have like, three posts you haven't seen and it's like 300 like how long do you How often do you really sit on and go through like 100 posts?

Kate Kordsmeier 44:43

Because one thing I've heard another Instagram trainer say it and I've seen people even sharing this on their own Instagrams if you want to make sure you see my posts go like the last repost said is ridiculous. It's grimy, completely wrong.

Manu Muraro 45:00

So the algorithm works with everything you do on the platform. So and it's it's machine learning. So it's always learning. It's exactly like not exactly like each algorithm is different. But the fundamental it's fundamentally similar to your Netflix algorithm. Like, if you log on to my Netflix right now, you may or may not see lots of murder shows.

My husband was sitting down with me, he's like, I wanted to watch a comedy. This is out of control like

this. But with each movie that I watch, or each series that I watch, it offers me more, it's learning more about my actions. So imagine every action it took on Instagram in the past month. So do you think three likes or three comments are gonna make a dent at all? I could difference it doesn't make it.

Kate Kordsmeier 45:56

Go like every post I've ever done, but nobody's gonna do that. Yeah.

Manu Muraro 46:00

And also like, why are we telling people to go like this three posts instead of giving people valuable content that they're actually naturally going like? Yeah, you know, for them, we become the kind of people that are just whining about how bad the algorithm, like, the problem of Instagram is not the algorithms that there's over a billion people doing posts, right? And our audience, they're very key. So if you want to have people engaging and caring about what you're doing, you definitely need to up your content game. There's no other way. Because you can make people's eyes get to your account in several ways, right? You can go meet them in an event networking, and you can, I don't know, send swag to people and say, follow us on Instagram. You can do contests, you can do anything. If they come, you can do influencer marketing. If they come to your page, and they don't see a reason to follow you. They're not going to follow you. Right.

Kate Kordsmeier 46:55

Yeah, I mean, I think that makes sense. I think the sentiment Behind they'll go like my last dream is to teach the algorithm that you like the snow that you

would need, like all the actions to teach the algorithm.

Manu Muraro 47:10

Right? Okay, so that makes sense.

Kate Kordsmeier 47:17

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Unknown Speaker 48:46

So

Kate Kordsmeier 48:46

the other thing that I've often said, I personally, probably blast me to you. I hate Instagram. I hate social media. I don't like spending my time on social

Yeah, yeah. And we're gonna try to follow the hundred accounts, and you never saw the, you're all caught up. But

yeah, I've never seen it. I even have a limit on my thing. And it's I mean, I do need it sometimes because just like anybody I can get sucked into the time waste of it, but I try to not spend more than 10 minutes a day on Instagram. And with that, then sometimes you know, I

Manu Muraro 49:25

have people doing Instagram for you for work. I do I do. So then make

Kate Kordsmeier 49:31

like, I don't have to be on to actually get my stuff posted. But one thing that I've seen when if I go and I look at Okay, here are some accounts that do really well. What are they doing? And I feel like what I often notice is they're on stories all day. They're sharing, like,

Manu Muraro 49:50

I don't know, like the whole thing about looking at different accounts. You don't know what I mean. How do you measure that they're doing really well?

Kate Kordsmeier 50:00

I guess I would say so some of them are people that I just know personally. So like, I have some friends that are green beauty bloggers, and they sell a lot of like their affiliate links, you know, like they love people, they get hundreds of swipe ups on their stories. So that's kind of how I'm measuring. That makes sense.

Manu Muraro 50:21

I was gonna say it's dangerous to just kind of look at the account from the outside, right? you're sharing metrics in a view that makes sense. So the thing is not about the quantity because that can really turn people off. I actually did a little post about asking people what made them unfollowing accounts that they like, Uh huh. And a lot I was expecting like loop giveaways and things like that and that came up but a lot came up like too many stories. Yeah, really annoying and I just don't follow so it's more than which contents then really like the amount of content but yeah, you'll have to I mean, and the power of sale thing if people are swiping up and buying For their affiliate links and all that kind of stuff, I do fairly well with that with for my size accounts too. And I think it's a lot about like building that trust with your audience and your audience really knowing that you're going to give them quality all along

as possible.

Kate Kordsmeier 51:18

Yeah. And maybe the better way to say it isn't necessarily that they're sharing, you know, three dozen stories a day, it's that they are personally coming on, show your face and talk to their people. And I just don't want to do that. Sometimes I've thought, if that's what it takes in order to be successful on Instagram, I'm not willing to do that. So I need to just accept that my Instagram success is going to be capped, or I need to say no, I don't want it to be capped. So I'm going to do it even though that's not really how I want to spend my time. So

Manu Muraro 51:55

I

first of all, I think There's not one format for all. Sure. So I think like, my members talk about this all the time, too. It's like, which app did you use to make this? And I'm like, I use this app. But it's not the app. But I think sorry, your content, your ideas. It's not the app. So it's not just showing your face. Show your face is important. It's great to show your face when you can show your face especially guys or bloggers, but that doesn't guarantee that success. Yeah. I can also if you don't like that, you're not going to be happy doing it. So it doesn't make any sense. Oh, I think you have a lot of other things you can do. You're even saying I'm gonna write that down about text about you know, like, there's many other ways that you can create your engagement. Your you just said yourself that you don't do a lot of like community engagement that you don't like being on the platform for too long. So it's really your I don't think there's an answer. Instagram is not going to double your business right now. I mean, depends. It could Like for my business, but that's what I do. So it's very different. You know, I think we need to I think Instagram is very public. And a lot of times people are very concerned about how many likes they have, how many whatever is they have, but again, like, you know this very well that email marketing is much more important than Instagram for sales. I have almost 21,000 people on Instagram, and I have 3000 people my newsletter because I just archived everybody that didn't really open borders. So I went from like that 4000 to 3000. And I sell a lot more on my newsletter, then on Instagram, although I have to say that my newsletter all grew because of Instagram hasn't Yeah,

Kate Kordsmeier 53:44

there's a lot of overlap. Now link together, and I get that too. And a lot of students in the six figure blog Academy will ask me, do I have to be on Instagram to be a successful blogger and a nice morning answer is no. Okay. It will probably help because well, hurt to be on it in a great way they're

monetizing is by

partnerships with brands. It's really rare to see a brand today that doesn't want Instagram posts. Yeah, it's That's true. I honestly would say the answer is yes, you need to be on Instagram for that. But how much time you need to spend on it is different because maybe you have a lot of pageviews in your blog, and your Instagram is just gonna a nice add on, which I am like, I have way more page views and email subscribers and Pinterest traffic, then I Instagram. And that works for me. But I also don't do a ton of branded sponsored content. And the brands I do work with actually do prefer email and blog content.

Unknown Speaker 54:55

Yeah, so that's

Kate Kordsmeier 54:57

what I say. I always say you should. You should probably Probably be on it. But again, how much time you dedicate to that. And the flip side, I have people that spend all of their time on Instagram and they say, isn't making any money, like get off Instagram and

Manu Muraro 55:14

your blog and put stuff there. I agree. There are people that are kind of it's funny, they still call it bloggers, but they're not really. I have a friend this is like, I'm not really a blogger. I don't even have a blog. I haven't written on my blog in like three years. So I still call them blogger, you know, it's like a blogger event. But, you know, the whole point of when people want it's just really depends on your, I mean, again, it depends on your business goals. And it also depends on your abilities and what you want to do like and what you're good at, because obviously you're the proof that you can have a very successful blog or business without necessarily being like, at the very top of Instagram game like you're saying, don't love it. You don't want to be on stories all the time. And that's fine. I'm much To watch that, that's when you know people use the word authentic, so much that it just became like, a huge cliche. Yeah. And honestly, if you're just doing this stuff in stores because their other friends are doing it, and their faces are there all the time, so your face start being there all the time. You're not going to feel comfortable, you're not going to be happy, like people are going to notice you know, you're going to try to be content the way someone else does it not yourself. So yeah, all that energy for sure. Yeah, but you need something like you definitely need something. You should have bolts like you have bolts and that's the thing like, your Instagram may not be like, yeah, I figured I don't even have email. Do what most I feel like most bloggers don't even have email lists or send Oh, I know.

Kate Kordsmeier 56:44

It's crazy when that when when we started focusing on our email list, and growing that and coming up with a strategy was like, that's when our incomes grow. Yeah, but I mean, even on my Kate Kordsmeier and Instagram account you know we had our January launch for the six figure blogger Academy and I think I had 2000 Instagram followers and we had a six figure launch and that was a perfect example of you don't need thousands of followers or you don't even need the swipe up because I think sometimes even myself I can get caught in well I just want to get 10,000 so I can have the swipe swipe up

does not matter at all.

Yeah, I know I keep hearing that over and over and I just need to

Manu Muraro 57:28

know like and then I asked the swipe up people I'm going to put you on the spot gate but I'm like okay, you're saying like I don't have the swipe up I need to swipe up are you telling people very directly where to go and what to do without the swipe up when you do stories?

Kate Kordsmeier 57:42

I do so we have this way but I don't but then yeah, on kk we do and well sometimes I'll you know Lincoln bio sometimes I'll even like show go I'll do like a video. Yeah. Oh, so no here like this, do that. This is the thing

Manu Muraro 57:58

I feel like and I'm you're super But I feel also like most people that are complaining, they'll have the swipe up. They think once they have swipe up, people are just gonna be swiping up. And yeah, it's not like that. So you still need to be cultivating your audience but also telling them where to go and make it easy for them. Like I actually, I have a blogger friend that I was looking at her blog on her Instagram, and she was promoting a brand partner, which I really wanted to go and book, they're what they're selling. And I look at the post and she's like, oh, linking their bio or something like that. You go to their bio, the link Not only is not there, but it's just there.com and you can not find that offer anywhere. Ah, yeah. So it's like, you know, you think that hiring an influencer having a big Instagram accounts gonna solve everything, but you have to look at every single step but you know, like when you're doing your website and you'll have a sign up of something, you have to sign it up and see if you get the experience that you want people to get if everything is working if you know where to go because If you're making that hard for people to work with you, I mean, people are not like necessarily throwing money in any of us, you know? All right, you have to make it very attractive and very easy for them to do even. Hey, proof. So I think people a lot of people that are complaining about their Instagram accounts, or their Instagram swipe up so they don't have our whatever you go to their posts, there's not one call to action on their posts. It's like a girl throwing like a peace sign to the air. And that's

wrong, by the way, I think.

But yeah, but it should be a filler. It shouldn't be like your main strategy.

Kate Kordsmeier 59:34

Right, exactly. Exactly. So one more question and then we'll kind of wrap up here. along the lines of what we've been saying of you know, you don't followers does not always equate to income and conversion. So what have you seen works best when it comes to selling on Instagram or converting followers into buyers and monetizing Instagram without working with brands?

Manu Muraro 1:00:00

Yeah, so just think of a blogger point of view or just anyone?

Kate Kordsmeier 1:00:06

Um, yeah. I think just anyone, anyone with an online Yeah,

Manu Muraro 1:00:11

okay. All my business because I don't see a difference between like you're sending someone to your brand partner, link, or what

Kate Kordsmeier 1:00:20

I meant is that you're not being sponsored by brands. Yes.

Manu Muraro 1:00:24

Yeah, no. So I think what you need to do is feel the things you said work on, you're engaged, go to inside, see which content people like and then sometimes, you know, one thing that I forgot to talk about when I talk about the Super Bowl, start looking at your insights. Some people go there and they see no pattern. They're like, Oh, the difference that I'm wearing a blue dress and a pink dress. I'm like, No, that's not what we're talking about yours being as far as a pattern. So if that is happening that you don't see a pattern is because you need to immediately diversify your content. Okay? People are probably bored to death. See the same as that. things over and over and over. So those things that you put there over and over and over should be your fillers. Right? You know, and they should be there every so often, but you need to find ways because we all know, especially now that Instagram is so personal, like we know what our audience asks us. In writing, we know what they comment on. We know they want, you know, when we're writing, like for the allowances for people who have online business, when you're creating our allowances, or like, if you do this, you feel this way. We know how they feel, right? So exactly know this. We need to make sure that our content is catching their eye right away delivering it to them, but they were actually addressing it. I said, I can give all the Instagram tips in the world. If I'm just doing that every time I'm just sitting on my desk, like people are not gonna read it. Right. I think it's just me and my desk, they might even like it and move on.

Kate Kordsmeier 1:01:53

Yeah, I know. And that's the thing too, with likes where it's like, just because they liked it doesn't mean they even read Right, no, not at all. idea what's happening here for things

Manu Muraro 1:02:03

that like is like the first second step from they stopped in a row and they liked it. And that's it.

Kate Kordsmeier 1:02:09

Yeah,

Manu Muraro 1:02:10

very true. Yeah, I think it's like the engagement and then also just very clear call to actions and make the call to action exciting and offer the benefit to and mostly a deadline to, which is what we do AV courses and all that. It's like a marketing strategy. But if you don't give people a reason to click something and a deadline, they don't need to. Right.

Kate Kordsmeier 1:02:32

Yeah, I've heard too that it's like, make it stupid, easy and straightforward. What you want people to do.

Manu Muraro 1:02:42

Yeah, if I may add one more thing. Everybody should get rid of their link trees and their lists of like, thousands of things in the Lincoln bio, just put the link where you want people to go.

Just the one laying

around. Yeah, yeah. Because then we're giving people another thin waist. get distracted and click on something else. Sure. Oh no. So that get rid of that direct link people are on their mobiles. People don't keep just like navigating the whole world through their mobile phones. So just give the direct link and switch very often.

Kate Kordsmeier 1:03:15

Yeah. Okay, that's good advice. So, to wrap up, I always ask the same questions at the end to everybody. This is just kind of like quick fun lightning round. Don't overthink it. Pick one thing. Okay. Okay, so what is your favorite way to make time for self care while running your own business?

Manu Muraro 1:03:35

Oh my gosh.

I think I schedule it on my calendar.

I'm taking a break. Yeah, I blocked my calendar out. So then I leave work early or something like that. And, you know, on those break, I will see a friend or go get a manicure somewhere that I'm not able to be doing work.

Kate Kordsmeier 1:03:56

Yeah, I love it. Okay. What is one tool or two strategy that you use to help with time management.

Manu Muraro 1:04:03

I actually my favorite thing is my calendar. Like my Google calendar is everything like it dictates my whole life like, okay, like I tell my friends, I'm so sorry. I became all those people that are like, oh, we're having dinner. Here's my calendar events.

Kate Kordsmeier 1:04:18

Show up. Yeah, got to put it in. And I know, I'm the same way and and then I have to have like, 10 alerts go off. Yes. That's it. Yeah. What's the most powerful business or mindset book that you've ever read? Just like the one you referenced again and again,

Manu Muraro 1:04:36

so I reference a lot the EOS by Gino? wickman. Yeah. intrapreneurs and the attraction? Yes, yes. Yeah. The traction. We used to use it a king of pops when I work there and we had training with one of their consultants that is like the guy that is writing his second book by name or whatever and was running the whole business, you know, but I still see myself to this day using a lot of the I like the simplicity of the marketing strategy. Yeah, there's a lot of things that didn't really work for me. And thinking that was the best way, like how to run a meeting and things like that. Like, I kind of like it. But I never thought work as we shoot we did for us. And I don't have a team right now to meetings with it's great. But the marketing the way that your whole business operates around your brand values, I love that like, and just how simple your strategy should be. So I feel like when I create strategies for Instagram, it's super simple because of what I learned with traction,

Kate Kordsmeier 1:05:41

traction. I just read that book in December, and I feel like it especially because I do have a team and that and I'm growing the team and so trying to figure out how do I create this culture that I want? And how do I hold people accountable? I

Manu Muraro 1:05:56

did that part of it because the king of cops I had people also So, reporting to me, we use that across the whole business for a while. I don't know if they still do but like I love the way that you review your employees performance is based on the brand values. I love that that worked. So well for me just kind of removes any doubt.

Kate Kordsmeier 1:06:16

Right? Exactly. Yeah. Love that. What's your favorite quote, mantra affirmation when it comes to

Manu Muraro 1:06:25

business? Oh, man. So this is more about starting a business. So if anyone is more in the beginning stages of a business, but even I think it even applies for you. And you're a little more you know, in it, but I think it's just started with what you have. So I guess, perfect is done is better than perfect. Yeah, I'm actually like the, the biggest example of that, like, I'm the queen of typos. The CEO of resending that same email. Yeah. I sent an email three times this week, so if anyone is like feeling bad They made a mistake or something, I send the same email three times because my link wouldn't work like so ridiculous. But yeah, that is not a good example. That's a bad example. But like, I'll send things out of a little typo here and there because I produce so much stuff that you can always, you know,

Kate Kordsmeier 1:07:16

yeah, well, and I think so many people can get caught in the analysis, paralysis or just progress, because it's not perfect. And so they're just not going to do anything. And then it's like, I agree. You just got to get started.

Manu Muraro 1:07:29

Do not have that problem. Like, don't think that you need every ducks in a row to start a business or to even Yeah, I didn't have a website for nine months when I started. Yeah,

Kate Kordsmeier 1:07:39

you don't have to have it all figured out. Yeah. And, you know, yeah. Okay. Um, last question. So the name of the podcast is Success with Soul. What does Success with Soul mean to you? Oh, man, I think it is

Manu Muraro 1:07:53

to Okay, I have a good example of that. I think it is be successful in a way that Also, of course, like, that's the name that you came up with, which is, it feeds your soul. But for me, when I started this business, I teach Instagram, you know, and a lot of people use Instagram for their side hustle, or they use it for their business, but not their client work or whatever that is. So people ask me for classes and courses and stuff on weekends and nights. And every single class I teach is Monday to Friday. We they, you know, like, because I have two little kids and their school day when I say no to so much stuff that is, on the nights and weekends, like, I will go to one and a half here and there of course, and I'll really pick which ones that I want to attend or even when I do my own, I did my own conference on a Saturday and that's fine. That's once a year. But I really have stuck to my promise that I was not gonna let this business Take me away from my kids because it's the part of the reason I started it because I had a one year old, you know, one and a half year old at the time. And I did not want to go on trips or well, weekends. And you know, it's the time I wanted to stay home with her. And now I have to, and I'm like, fine, I'm gone every time I have families together and that I should be spending time with them like that. I'm not successful. Yeah, what's the point? What's the point?

Kate Kordsmeier 1:09:23

Yeah, I totally agree. Thank you so much for coming. Just tell people where they can find you. And then we'll close out

Manu Muraro 1:09:32

well, so they can find me on Instagram at your social team. And very excited with very few followers at Tick Tock at your social team. Fast. Obsessed is like the best thing. It's better than Instagram. But you can find me there. If you're tick talking. And my website is your social doc team. I go on their training. There's a lot of like free resources that you can look at.

Kate Kordsmeier 1:09:57

Okay, thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

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