029: How to Pitch a Podcast with Mai-Kee Tsang

Kate Kordsmeier 0:00

Welcome back to the Success with Soul podcast. It's Episode 29 and I'm your host, Kate Kordsmeier. Today's episode just makes my heart so happy. It is the epitome of Success with Soul of genuine connection of being your authentic, truest self and showing up fully in your business. And yet it's also full of so much good strategy. We're talking about how to reverse engineer your goals so that you can receive the volume that you need in your business to reach those goals. And we're doing it all through guesting on other people's podcasts. So if you have ever wanted to be a guest on someone else's podcast which hint you should it will skyrocket your business. This is the episode for you you're going to get all of the nitty gritty how with lots of soul before we get into it. I want to introduce you to my amazing guest, the beautiful Mai-Kee is a podcast guesting strategist, mentor and podcast host herself, who helps purpose driven experts become sustainably visible. So she does this by helping her clients and students build these self sustaining systems in their business to book themselves on a lined podcast in their industry. That way they can share their vision with audiences who are ready to fully receive the message. I can't wait to share this with you. So let's just get into it. You're listening to the Success with Soul podcast with Kate Kordsmeier, ex journalists turned CEO of a multi six figure blog and online business. But it wasn't that long ago that Kate was a struggling entrepreneur who lacked confidence, clarity, and let's be honest money. But all those failures, experiments and lessons learned helped Kate create a thriving business that impacts thousands and brings freedom, flexibility and fulfillment to her life. If you're ready to do the same and make something happen with holistic, soulful, step by step strategies from Kate and other experts, you're in the right place. here's your host, writer, educator, Mom, recovering perfectionist, bookworm and sushi connoisseur Kate Kordsmeier. Hey, welcome to Success with Soul. I am so excited to have you on the show today.

Mai-kee Tsang 2:26

Thanks so much for having me. Kate. Really excited.

Kate Kordsmeier 2:29

Yes. So I learned of you on Instagram, when a mutual friend of ours shared that you were helping her with some podcast guesting opportunities. And I was like, I need that. And we started talking. And now here we are. So give everybody just like an intro into who you are your story what you do.

Mai-kee Tsang 2:54

Yeah, thank you. And oh my gosh. Okay. Where to start with this. I've been I've been on like over 30 plus customers. It's always a different jump off point. Yeah, I know. Sir. Yes. So my name is Nikki sang. And I am the podcast gifting strategist and sustainable visibility mentor. So that's the first.

Kate Kordsmeier 3:16

I love it. Great elevator pitch. Thank you.

Mai-kee Tsang 3:19

And I'm here to help purpose driven entrepreneurs, especially coaches and copywriters, and other online service providers to become sustainably visible. So that way they can expand their reach, grow the business and make a deeper impact. Beautiful.

Kate Kordsmeier 3:35

So how did you get into this incredibly niche line of work? I love it.

Mai-kee Tsang 3:41

Yeah, so basically what happened is that when like I've had a lot of different shifts in my entrepreneurial journey from coaching to copywriting long strategy, and now podcast gifting. And to me, I've always found the gap in the market. So when I was doing a lot of strategy work, I discovered that so many people want to launch their most amazing offers, you know, that they want to share with the world to really help people. And there are so many people's launches that was just flopping. And then when I did some deeper work into it, I discovered that a lot of people focus so much on the copy and the offers and the pricing, which don't get me wrong. Those are very essential ingredients. But they missed the mark when it comes to building a loyal audience to actually market to

Kate Kordsmeier 4:33

Yeah, the best marketing won't work if nobody sees it.

Mai-kee Tsang 4:36

Exactly. Yeah. And so I thought, okay, there's clearly a gap here, there's a lack of focus on building one's audience. And I'm the type of person okay that I can't teach my clients or my students anything that I haven't done myself, because to me, it feels out of integrity. But I know that there are plenty of people out there that just simply offer their best to a client and kind of that businesses are a little bit on that back end when it comes to doing what they teach, like, you know, walking the talk, right? Yeah. So I'll say, Okay, I clearly can't talk about this until I do it myself. So this was a time in my business where I shifted from copywriting in general, to launch strategy, right? And then I thought, Okay, I'm going to help people with a lot, just more than I needed to focus on the audience piece. So Around this time, I actually started my own podcast. And I quickly saw how my own reach was also very limited, because I had a finite pool to market to, in my personal network, right. So that's when I knew Okay, I need to do some more here. And then for mentors of mine, they simultaneously said the same piece of advice, which was make a you need to get booked on podcast as a guest. And I was like, Okay. That Yeah, exactly. Like, how did I do that? And so, okay, I challenged myself to pitch, personally, to 101 podcasts in 30 days. I like it ambitious, ambitious. Yes. And before people start thinking, like, Oh, it's just a numbers game to you, then. It was not because I personalize each and every pitch to every podcaster.

Kate Kordsmeier 6:26

Like, how personal are we talking?

Mai-kee Tsang 6:28

Like I was scour through their social media, their websites, their you know, past episodes, their podcast description, I will find a common link, and actually see the gaps in the conversation they've had so far. So do that for each one. It's like we can get more into that later.

Kate Kordsmeier 6:46

Yes, I know. We have a lot to dig into with that. But I'm curious. What was your success rate of those hundred and one pitches? How many podcasts Did you get on?

Mai-kee Tsang 6:56

I got a Yes, in one of every three.

Kate Kordsmeier 7:00

Wow, that is amazing.

Mai-kee Tsang 7:03

Yeah, one in three. Yeah, so 33%, for those of you who would prefer a percentage. And I learned firsthand Kate, how to do all because I was literally trial and error ring, I did not use any templates. I literally that just came up with my own coffee. And thank goodness that I had a background in copywriting at that point, just to really understand how to effectively communicate and convey the value in a pitch. And I also learned what not to do, which again, we can get into later. But yeah, basically, fast forward this challenge, I suddenly became known as the person who knew how to get booked on podcasts, because not many people would go all out for a 101 challenge. Nor do I actually recommend it. Because Because I'm not gonna lie. I did that on the outs because of the extent of innovation. But I knew that I was onto something. And then I started getting referrals, right, left and center, just from people seeing I've been on these podcasts I didn't even listen to some of the episodes sometimes didn't have to. It's because of the authority that was attached to this visibility opportunity.

Kate Kordsmeier 8:17

Yes, I know, I think that's so important is that authority piece, it's so critical to not only expand your reach, right? And your people who are listening to that podcast episodes that you're on are now being welcomed into your world, getting to know you in a way where there's nothing else like it, right, because it's an hour that they get to spend talking to you and really hearing from you. And then it does give you this like, street cred of, yeah, I obviously know what I'm doing because such and such bigwig that you trust had me on their show as an expert.

Mai-kee Tsang 9:00

Yes, exactly. And here's where the next gap came, right. Because I started noticing during my most recent rebrand my brand strategist, she told me to basically highlight whom I quote unquote, competition loans. I'm very much a collaborator over competition. But just to make her job easier. I didn't bite her on that. Fine. I will like put down the names who I believe are like, quote, unquote, competition. And this was the biggest defining moment for me, which has really like shifted my trajectory, like in this work of visibility of a role. And I've put down the names of the people who claim to have started this industry, not industry leaders, industry starters. And I'm not going to name them because I'm not all about that. But when I named them, my strategist, she was like, okay, maybe I need to show you something. And then she forwarded the pitches that they had sent to her Okay, I am not gonna lie, I was really, really disappointed. Because these are people who I really looked up to, and they talk so much about, you know, connection and the power podcast guessing. But they miss the whole point of connection. And that was really shocking to me.

Kate Kordsmeier 10:22

Yeah, me too. And and why do you feel like they missed that point of connection? Where were they, you know,

Mai-kee Tsang 10:30

Mark, the lack of personalization. And it's very clear that they were pitching their clients to anybody who would accept them. And that's when I started to see the shallow side of many visibility conversations that happen online right now is very much about how many podcasts can you get on, you know, so it was much more of a quantity game as opposed to a quality game. And that's where I really wanted to make the shift, because I didn't want to contribute to that any further. Which is why I've made a conscious shift to focus on sustainable visibility, which is rooted in integrity, alignment, and connection. And podcast guesting is a beautiful gateway for lasting connections, but so many people just focus on just getting on there and nothing more. Right. And that's the conversation that I want to have to help people see that there's a beautiful way for you to make lasting connections that can serve you and your business, you know, for years on end, if you make more conscious connections, as opposed to just like thinking about how many shows you can get done.

Kate Kordsmeier 11:47

Right, right. Oh, gosh, where to go from here. I have so many follow up questions for you now. I guess maybe one of the first things though, just to kind of set the stage is I sort of gave a couple of the reasons in my mind why podcast guesting is so powerful. But I'd love to hear from your experience, like what are some of the things that being a guest on other people's podcast have done for you?

Mai-kee Tsang 12:13

Hmm, yes. So first and foremost, I wind up making like really great friends with the host. Which is great, because if you really think about it, the host of a podcast, they are a thought leader, right? Because they have their own platform, they have a mission to share. And they're creating their own movements. So that's an amazing way to connect with someone who is like, you know, doing good things and making great waves in the world. Right? For sure.

Kate Kordsmeier 12:45

I was just gonna say, for the same reason, I love hosting a podcast too, because I get to talk to all of these brilliant, amazing people and then become friends with them. And I'm like, selfishly, this is so fun for me.

Mai-kee Tsang 13:01

I mean, like the the circus, no harm and you know, making friends. Yeah. And, of course, I have received direct clients from like, literally, in my, in my phones, when people apply to work with me. I will ask the question, how did you hear about me? And then they would say, Oh, I I've never heard of you before until I heard you on this podcast, they would name the podcast. And what was interesting to me, kay is that they were willing to already invest like thousands of dollars to work with me, even though there was no prior connection I had with him personally, not on social media, not through email, not through nothing. But all they had to do was listen to a podcast. And they already have the know, like and trust factor, like embedded into them.

Kate Kordsmeier 13:48

Yeah, exactly. That's That's the point. You said it much more eloquently than I did, but that I was trying to make in the beginning. It's like that. It's like such quality time that people really feel connected to you. And like they really know you and trust you in a way that, you know, even having like a media feature and Forbes or something like maybe sounds sexier. But I think you probably get more clients from being a guest on podcast than some fancy byline.

Mai-kee Tsang 14:20

Mm hmm. Absolutely. And the beautiful thing is that that there is no limit to the connections you can create. Because think about it, when a podcast episode goes live their lives forever on that platform. And it's up to you know, the guest and you know, partially the host to promote the episode, right? But they're like forever and so you can build your email list that way you can, you know, fill up your group programs or you know, have a huge list to promote to when you're launching your course. You can have collaboration partners like I have been invited into so many memberships and masterminds and online courses. And I think what people don't realize is that those doors are a lot more coveted. Because it's an extra layer of trust someone needs to have in you, before they put you in front of their paid audience. Hmm.

Kate Kordsmeier 15:16

Yeah, that's such a good point. I hadn't thought about that.

So

you have this kind of methodology called? Well, you say you're on a mission to redefine visibility. So tell me a little bit more about what you mean by that. I know, we've talked about kind of missing that personal connection. Is there more to the story there?

Mai-kee Tsang 15:37

Yeah, I just feel that so many people skip over the acknowledgement of the real reason why people aren't showing up already. And it's not because they're not smart. It's not because they have poor time management skills, because so many people, and when I say so many people, I've done my market research. This is like, the actual words that people say, as they join my facebook group. They all say like, Oh, yeah, I'm just inconsistent, because you know, I just don't have any time or something like that. And I think to myself, God, and like, there is an element of that, sure, by feel that there's some complete lack of acknowledgement of a deeper conflict that's happening beneath the surface that they may or may not be aware of. Mm hmm.

Kate Kordsmeier 16:24

Like what?

Mai-kee Tsang 16:27

As in, I'm afraid of what other people are going to think of me? What if my family sees this? What if my spouse actually listens to this and thinks differently of me? There's so much that goes beneath the surface. And there's actually quite a few micro traumas, or even macro traumas that people are experiencing, but because that is not acknowledged, they show up in an unsustainable way. That's why they stop and start. That's why it's inconsistent, is because they're pushing themselves when a part of them is trying so hard to stay hidden.

Kate Kordsmeier 17:06

Fascinating. Now, you've got my wheels turning going, I've had on my to do list pitching podcast for quite a while now. And it's like I'll do, I'll do a little not a batch. But you know, like, Okay, I've got an idea. I'm going to pitch it to these five podcasts. And then a couple more months go by, I'm gonna get to that again. But

Mai-kee Tsang 17:33

you're not alone at all those? Yeah, there's so many people who are there ready, you know, for the visibility. They say that, but they're actually not ready to be seen. And that's a very big difference. Now, do you have personal experience with not being ready to be seen? Was that something you had to work through as you started trying to get more visible? Absolutely. I mean, you may not be able to tell this from my voice, but maybe from my name, you can tell that I am of Asian descent. And so there's a lot of cultural aspects for me that kind of like plays into how I show up online because my work makes no sense to my family. Because they're like, why you make money online and that illegal? You know, I'm the first of my generation to do something different. Yeah. You know, and because of that, there's so much that I need to respect when it comes to my family, about how much I share and don't. So that's one aspect. But another is because while I was mentioning before Kay about resolving certain conflicts, so I didn't mention this towards the beginning, but I have had several experiences of sexual abuse.

Kate Kordsmeier 18:55

I, I cannot imagine.

Mai-kee Tsang 18:58

Thank you. And because of that, there was so much of me that did not want to be seen, especially by men. Hmm. Yeah. And I've never talked about this on a podcast before. Because I know that this also happens to men. So this is not that's just like a female only sort of struggle. But I do believe that there is a certain level of privilege that men have when they show up online that females just don't.

Kate Kordsmeier 19:31

Yeah, for sure.

Mai-kee Tsang 19:33

Yeah. Because I, for one, have received unwanted attention from men that you know, have a sexual nature through messages. And when that happened, I used to want to run and hide, because it's like, oh, I'm drawing too much attention to myself. And the thing is, no one talks about online safety as an entrepreneur, especially for females. And so this is just like another layer of primal Security that we have embedded within us, that is not acknowledged, which is why just simply applying strategy and trying to override our primal instincts to protect ourselves. That's what doesn't work in the long term. Yeah.

Kate Kordsmeier 20:17

Yeah. It's so true. And I think, you know, most of my listeners are women, and I'm sure this will resonate with a lot of them. And even if you haven't been through, you know, a macro trauma, like what you've described, so many women, Will people in general, but I think in this instance, women seem to struggle a lot more with this fear of visibility, and probably from, you know, thousands of years of living under a patriarchy where we're told that we are worth less than men, and that it's not safe to be seen, whether that just means some unwanted attention, or, you know, something way more traumatic than that, and that we have, you know, imposter syndrome embedded so deep within us of thinking, who am I to do this? Who would listen to me or, you know, I'm not good enough to teach anybody anything, or to talk about anything with any kind of authority or something. So, yeah, I think that's a huge thing that keeps people from going after what they really want, because they're afraid of what some people are even like, when you really get down to it are afraid of being successful. Yeah, like, I think it comes out sometimes as afraid of failure. What if it doesn't work? But I think there are just as many people going, like, what if it does work? And then what are they gonna think about me? I mean, like you said, I can so relate to, I still struggle when people ask me what I do, like somebody who I don't know, I meet for the first time, they say, what do you do? Like, Oh, God, how do I even explain this? Just sounds fake, or something, right? Like, I can't possibly make money doing all of this really fun, amazing stuff. But I do. And I don't know, I'm going off on a tangent now there. But I so relate to what you're saying. This fear of visibility, for sure.

Mai-kee Tsang 22:18

Yeah. And I'm really glad that you acknowledged micro traumas, because I think it's kind of like people feel the need to have a permission slip to admit that they feel trauma, it's kind of like I saw this post the other week about, anyone can be tired, you don't have to have kids, you don't have to, you know, have somebody to look after, or you don't have to have like this nine to five job and also a night job in order to be tired, anybody could be tired. And I apply that same approach to trauma, like anybody can be traumatized. It doesn't have to be this, like this big thing that happened. It can be something as subtle as a glance, glance from somebody that is traumatizing. Anything that makes you feel unsafe in your own skin. That is trauma.

Kate Kordsmeier 23:11

Yeah. I we've had a couple amazing guests on talking about this idea of like little t trauma or micro traumas. And I just, it's something that I, I think myself in the past and kind of seeing the light now, but in the past, and something that I think so many of us do is over associate with the word trauma and thing like if your life was literally not in, like imminent danger, or like you weren't raped or murdered or something that like it doesn't count that you should just be able to get over it. And I think it explains so much when we acknowledge like, No, I did feel unsafe when that man looked at me, like, you know, glaring glared at me or I felt, whatever it might be, however subtle or small. And once you're aware of it, you can heal from it. But when we're not aware, and we're not accepting that, like, Oh, no, that really wasn't a big deal because it wasn't a true life or death situation. Then it's like we get this buildup in our bodies have this trauma that we can't process and it keeps us from going after what we really want, I think.

Mai-kee Tsang 24:23

Yes, absolutely. It's like all of this like for for all the occasions you've ever brushed off that Oh, that doesn't really matter that oh, I don't want to talk about it, though. All Okay, I'll get over as fine. As the more and more you suppress that it manifests into a very real defense mechanism. For you to Yes, they hidden to stay safe.

Kate Kordsmeier 24:47

Staying hidden. Yes. Okay. I feel like that was some pretty mind blowing revelations.

I'm super excited to get into some of this strategy. So we're ready to stop being hidden. We're ready to step into visibility and own our power and give us some advice for how can we start to do this? Obviously, we're going to be talking specifically about how to get guest spots on other people's podcasts. So I know you have this methodology, your signature sustainable visibility process. What does that look like?

Mai-kee Tsang 26:13

Okay, so is this specifically with podcast guesting? Or overall? There are two ways about it. There are two systems. That's why I'm like, which one should I go with for this?

Kate Kordsmeier 26:25

I know. Okay, well, I feel like that the episode is specific to guest podcasting. So maybe there,

Mai-kee Tsang 26:33

Okay, perfect. So I have this three phase process, I call it pitch with purpose, because is pitching with purpose. And the first phase is having a purposeful strategy. And what I mean by that is reverse engineering, this visibility opportunity, how are you going to receive the volume. And what I mean by that, if your goal is to build an email list, you have to have some form of a lead magnet, the landing page, the confirmation email, the nurture sequence, you need to have all of that set up beforehand. Because if you land on like, say, if you are guessing on I don't know, Amy Porterfield, she just seems to be the person that just comes to mind. If you

write hashtag goals,

that if you think of that, and if she, you know, allowed for you to share, like lead magnet, then you you're gonna want to make sure that you have systems set up to receive the volume that will be sent your way. Hmm.

Kate Kordsmeier 27:42

Yeah. So it's so much more than just Oh, be a guest on this podcast, and everything will just magically, you know, have money in your bank account the next day? Yeah. system set up in advance in order. I love that. Okay.

Mai-kee Tsang 27:57

Yes, it's important to have those hard metrics and soft metrics, I believe. So hard metric is all the numbers, right. So you know, how many people apply to work with you for like, I don't know, VIP day, for example, or, you know, people on your email list, there's all the numbers that you can track that will trackable. But I also believe it's important to take into account the soft metrics. So these other things are a bit more qualitative. And qualitative, is a bit of a tongue twister word. And this is when I'd love to bring in the concept of the impact iceberg. So basically, with the iceberg theory, you see about 20% above the surface, and 80% below the surface, there is going to be a smaller head of people who will directly tell you how much of an impact you've made on them. Right? These are the people who follow you who start conversations in the end who join your Facebook group, whatever it is, they will make themselves be seen before you. But the 80% of people who's waiting for the right time to tell you or maybe they never will. The Silent followers, the silent follower. Yes. And they are the people who will talk about you in like in whispers to their friends. So the impact is happening, whether we're not fully aware of it or not. Because think about it, okay, for all the podcasts you've listened to. Have you reached out to the host for every episode that really landed with you?

Kate Kordsmeier 29:38

I've never even left a review. I mean, I am the ultimate silent follower. I mean, whether it's on Instagram, or I never comment, I never send them DMS. I rarely leave reviews. So yeah, when I have to remind myself like there are other people just like me listening to my podcasts or taking my course or reading my blog that I'm making an impact on, and I'll never know it. Mm hmm.

Mai-kee Tsang 30:09

Exactly. And you'll you're not alone in that I have listened to so many podcasts. And now that think about it, oh, maybe I should leave some more reviews. But the point is, is that they've impacted us. And like, actually, one person who I don't think I've actually left a review for is actually me. But I bought all of her courses.

Kate Kordsmeier 30:29

Total groupie

Mai-kee Tsang 30:31

in any group, exactly. And that's the case for us, too, when we are the person who's being showcased.

Kate Kordsmeier 30:41

Which I mean, I'm taking two big things away from this, which is one when you are the content producer, to not take it personally, or to not think you're not making a difference when you don't get tons and tons of direct feedback. Yes. But then also, as a consumer, I'm feeling like, it's my duty to let these people know that they have made an impact, because that's what I would want people to do for me. And you know, without that, sometimes it's hard to get the motivation when you feel like am I just talking into a void here? Is anybody listening? Is anybody paying attention? So I'm going to be better about that for the people that have made an impact to me. Mm hmm.

Mai-kee Tsang 31:22

Me too. So we'll be on that mission together. Okay. Okay.

Kate Kordsmeier 31:26

I'm gonna I'm gonna text you in a couple weeks and be like, how many podcasts reviews? Did you leak?

Mai-kee Tsang 31:30

Yeah, screenshots. We need evidence.

Yeah, so phase one. That's what it is purposeful strategy. So before you receive the volume, do you have your business set up? To receive it?

Kate Kordsmeier 31:46

Yes. Okay. So smart. So that's phase one. How about Part Two?

Mai-kee Tsang 31:52

Part Two, that is the personalized pitching. So this is where like most of the people kind of like, hone in on when they need help. So the easiest way that I could share with UK is that I have pitched hundreds of podcasts for myself, and for my clients. And there are two common themes, no matter what niche, they're in what no matter what topic, there are, what gender they are all the things.

Kate Kordsmeier 32:23

And it's a simple concept.

Mai-kee Tsang 32:25

The piano and

Kate Kordsmeier 32:27

yes, I'm like, I'm on the edge of my seat. What is it?

Mai-kee Tsang 32:32

The PR method?

Kate Kordsmeier 32:34

Okay. What does that mean?

Mai-kee Tsang 32:37

What do you think it means? I'm curious, what comes to mind?

Kate Kordsmeier 32:41

Well, as a former journalist who received dozens of pitches every day, I would say it is the spray and pray method, the just like, get it out to as many people as you can. It's kind of what you were saying before, like it's a numbers game. But it's clear that you're just a number two them that, you know, they don't know who you are, they haven't studied your work. They've never listened to your show, or read your magazine, or whatever it may be. And yeah, you can tell that they sent it out to 500 other people at the same time.

Mai-kee Tsang 33:15

Hmm. So there's my right, is the exact opposite. In a go, because that's what we're trying to prevent. We're preventing the on mass cookie cutter pitches. And so all we need is for it to be personalized,

Kate Kordsmeier 33:32

and relevant, personalized and relevant. I like it. Okay, so tell me more about how you personalize pitches like, pretend you're going to pitch the Success with Soul podcast. You've never heard of it before. But you found it in some research and you think, Oh, I'd be a good guest for the show. Which by the way, you didn't pitch me, I found you. This is I just giving that disclaimer to anybody who's like, Oh, this is awkward that she's sharing this. I'm like, No, no, I'm curious how you would do it. And for like a real life example.

Mai-kee Tsang 34:08

If it helps, the podcast interviews, I've been on some of the host, even if the topic isn't podcast getting they will talk about the pitch that I said

very meta

personalization. So the key here is to hook them in with proof that you acknowledge their work. So first of all, I would absolutely say your name and spell it correctly.

No so dear sir, or madam notice, or to whom it may concern?

Kate Kordsmeier 34:41

Yeah, or even Hi there. I'm like, I see behind that. Hi, there.

Mai-kee Tsang 34:47

I know what that means. Yes, it means no reservation. So you surprised how many people actually don't put their name Yes, edit. Like job for me personally, unlike How could you not when it's in the email that you're sending is to write.

Kate Kordsmeier 35:07

It's not a mystery?

Mai-kee Tsang 35:10

No, but that extra millisecond that it would take to type someone's name Bella correctly. That is the first step. Yes. And then what I would do next is share how I'm on common ground with them. So especially because I specialize in cold pitches, that I feel extremely warm. That's one thing. I love it. And so pretend I didn't know you at all. Okay, so what I would do is, you know, say your name. And I'd say like, hey, so my name is Mary Kay, and I'm a fellow x y Zed. So something that puts us on common ground already tells you like, Oh, this make a girl. I don't know her, but she seems to get me. Like I say, I would say something that reflects your beliefs. I would say something that reflects your podcast mission. And I would also say how we're on the same page and why? You know, okay,

Kate Kordsmeier 36:08

that's so hard.

Mai-kee Tsang 36:10

Yeah. And like I use the keyword is fellow.

Kate Kordsmeier 36:15

Yeah, I just made a note of that. And I like Circle Circle.

Mai-kee Tsang 36:21

Like, I'd say, like on the fellow podcaster. So that already tells you, Hey, I'm a podcaster, too. I've got the equipment, road bump right over. And it also tells you like, hey, the person the podcaster, too, which means she knows how much of a big deal it is to have guests on the show that are really well aligned and confide value to our audience. Mm hmm. Right. So anything that puts you on common ground? I have shared with people that oh, you know, I'm a fellow cat GIF lover, like, here's my favorite insert gifts. You know, something that shows you that they paid attention to the micro details that you like, kind of sprinkle across your presence online.

Kate Kordsmeier 37:04

Yeah. And you could probably do something like that just by listening to one episode of their podcast and pull something out. Oh, I'm a fellow Border Collie. Owner. I'm a fellow. You know, I love the cat tip example. That's so funny.

Mai-kee Tsang 37:21

Yeah. And so that's all it takes for it to be sunny paths in life, and then this, and then the transition is this like, Okay, I know that on your Success with Soul podcast, I noticed that you haven't talked about x y Zed yet. And they know your mission is about x y Zed. So this is when I would reflect what you've already shared, either in your intro, or in another episode or the podcast description that you've shared on your website or on Apple, I would reflect those key words back at you. So you know that I know what you're about. Mm hmm.

Kate Kordsmeier 37:57

so brilliant.

Mai-kee Tsang 37:58

And it's key, by the way, that one does not copy and paste. Because I'll tell you a little side story. Okay, so somebody pitched me. And I knew that they copied and paste for two reasons. One, I know what my copy is. And two, I saw the subtle change in the color of the text. Yes, like the rest of it was black. But this part was like a dogleg right away. Yeah, right. Exactly. And you're like, oh, he was so close that I copied and pasted that not good. Yeah. The subtleties, they, they scream pretty loudly. Let's just say that. And so acknowledgement of the podcast purpose. And where a gap has been formed in the current conversations that have happened is like, hey, I want to contribute this to your audience. And here's how we could do that. So then that's when I would you know, this is when the relevancy piece comes in. So I would talk about Hayes I already I know that you talked about emails, but I know that you haven't talked about podcast guesting, which could be a way for you to create that gateway between how someone gets on your email list. And for somebody to build up that trust already to help them be primed for them to buy from you. When you're ready to launch something. Then I'd create a bridge of connection based on previous episodes, I would reference them with the episode number, the guest name a takeaway that's specific ASCII, a specific takeaway. So that way, like the host knows, like, okay, maybe he knows what she's talking about. She can't have made this up.

Kate Kordsmeier 39:41

Right. She couldn't have sent this to 10 other podcasts. This is very, like she studied it, she gets it.

Mai-kee Tsang 39:49

Yes. And then so that's when like the relevancy again it comes through. So that's when you would map out the flow of the conversation that could happen if they If they were interested in the topic, but the key with this parkade is that you leave it open to the guests. So not the guest, you leave it open to the host. Mm hmm. So I would say, of course, I'm totally open to your own spin that angles to best suit your audience. So it's like, Hey, I know, you know your audience best. I'm happy to roll with you. But here's some like content to kind of like stop, like finding different angles from if this is not resonating right now.

Kate Kordsmeier 40:28

Yeah. Okay. So I think this is so smart. And it's I mean, it takes time, it's not something that you can just cobbled together in five minutes for each pitch. But it's not hard. Like what you're describing is very, like, okay, anybody could do this, you just have to put in the time and actually care, which I feel like so many people don't. But it also makes me wonder, how long do you feel like a good pitch really is this is something that I've struggled with, when I've pitched myself for a variety of different things, where it's like, I want it to be short and sweet and to the point. But if I have, you know, if I have a paragraph or two, where I'm proving that this is personalized, and then I have a paragraph or two, that's like my actual idea. It ends up being like, Okay, wait, now you're having to scroll to read my whole email. People don't have time for that. What do you think?

Mai-kee Tsang 41:32

Well, as somebody who has a business that was completely built on podcast, gifting, I've mastered the long form pitch, okay, is what landed me one in every three spots. So it's actually not about that, of the pitch itself. Because that's what so many people focus on. They think, like, oh, is too long care? Like, no, no, trust me, the personalization is the hook. And the relevancy is the retention piece. And as you know, past copywriter, that's what you need, in order for somebody to read a long form sales page, or a long email is all about how connected it is, and how relevant it is for the reader. Because the length, it showcases the extent of detail that you're willing to provide, of course, you know, break up emails is not one giant block, you know, make certain statements bold, like I always embolden The, the core topic. So that stands out. And I always vote in the Oh, here are some, you know, so here are some things we could talk about the interview. So they can add, they can skip the email, because remember, you are not forcing this person to read your email, you're not next to them by the laptop, like, like, forcing their head to read the screen, you're not doing that they have the choice on whether to read it or not. So like, then, like, break it up like that, so that they have a skimmable way to read the email if they're not going to read every single word. But most likely, if you get them with the hook, and you show that you have studied them, they will keep reading. I mean, just I would when I've gotten pitches like that, I do go Okay, let me see what you have to say, because you've done your homework. And when I get pitches that say, hey there or like, hey, route, and rebel all in one word, which is my blog, and they clearly just have are using some app that's pulling my Instagram handle.

Kate Kordsmeier 43:25

My name is not root and revel 100. all lowercase.

Mai-kee Tsang 43:29

Yeah,

Kate Kordsmeier 43:30

immediately deleted. So I think you're right, I probably it's one of those things. And it's like, we're focusing on the wrong thing, because it's just like a another procrastination technique.

Mai-kee Tsang 43:40

Yeah. And I think that there is an element of effort, reciprocity that we naturally have, like when we see someone's gone through a lot of effort to reach out to us, in a super personal makes it relevant. You want to give them an extra minute of your time of day, because I okay. Like, Kate has put in a lot of effort into this. I'm going to read it because it's clear that it's not sent on mass. So I think that's something to really take into account. And I love what you mentioned earlier about, this is something that anybody could do, but not everybody cares. Not everybody is very intentional with who they reach out to. Right.

Kate Kordsmeier 44:17

Yeah, right. I love the concept of effort. reciprocity, that is so so true. And what a what a good name for that. So, okay, another question on on these pitches. And I think maybe we there's a third part to your framework to that I don't want to skip over. But while we're on the pitching aspect of it, and do you recommend pitching yourself or hiring somebody to pitch for you, whether it's a VA or a publicist? Or you or how does it work and what what do you find to be more successful?

Mai-kee Tsang 44:53

Well, I've discovered, I think, in the space that I'm in and I guess what we might be mutually in With personal brands, they like hearing directly from the person. So I no one pitches to me, I pitch myself. And the reason for that is because it just feels like, Oh, I cared enough to do it myself. Because Yeah, you get that feeling like, I actually, I have a lot of podcaster friends, and they always tell me that, oh, yeah, if it's from an agency, I don't even look at it. And not to say that PR agencies don't work because they're, there's a select few that I can think of that, you know, really do go all in with a personalization. So they, they're the exception to the rule. But I've discovered that many high profile personal brands, they love hearing directly from the person, because it's affected is they all if you're high ish profile yourself, and you're the one doing the pitch, that means more than just like, knowing that you've outsourced it to your VA, because you couldn't be bothered. Yeah, but there were, there is a way around it as well, I have trained my team to pitch on behalf of my clients. And they do it as them, but they do the deep work first day, for example, I have three sessions for a client. And that's when I really dig deep into the story and just from the way that they speak. And then my team watches those recordings. So they can pick up their speech patterns, and pick up you know, their brand values just from how they have talked about their business. And so we make sure that that is not a crappy representation of who they are, as I write, this is actually very aligned. And I approve it all first before they send their pitches and then boom, off to the right.

Kate Kordsmeier 46:44

Yeah. And I'm thinking to another kind of workaround, if you're like, I just don't have the bandwidth to do all of this myself is that you hire somebody to do some of that research to personalize it, etc. And then they come to you and say, Okay, here's the personalization. And then you're the one that actually sends it out. Do you feel like that is like cheating, or like, it takes away some of that, you know, caring and, and really being purposeful with it.

Mai-kee Tsang 47:13

I think it's cheating. Because at the end of the day, what I find is the most important is your intention. So if the intention when you send all these pitches is I just want to get on that as many podcasts, I need to send five today and my fourth one. Like, if that is the is that's what's running through your mind. And yeah, it may not be the great, greatest way to go. But if you do take just a few minutes of your time, just add that personal flair that makes it a key pitch. Yeah, that's fine. Because the first thing I did outsource was research, because I don't love judging. So I hire that out like very early on. And then I started training my team on how to send pitches with like absolute intention, integrity. And I don't feel bad about the tool, because I know that my gifts are, you know, best spent elsewhere on the actual interview. But I'm not connected, disconnected from the process. And I think that's the mistake that many people have, or what they kind of go through as they consider podcast guesting. They want to be so far removed from the process. And unlike okay, but podcast guests in an extremely intimate medium. I believe anyway, and this is what my approach is about. My clients are all on board with this, that they know where to outsource. But they know that they're not too important to be removed from the process.

Kate Kordsmeier 48:42

Right? Well, and you know, you're still connected in it in the way that you even know who you're pitching. Like, if you just hire a publicist or a VA, you don't really know what they're doing on the other end, but when they're giving you Okay, here's the email and now you're going to send it you get to take a look at it first, you know who you're pitching. And when they respond, you get to develop that relationship with the host, which I feel like is also super important, right? Because, absolutely. Do you have any like little hacks that you use to kind of find the balance between that quantity and quality like I'm thinking, I've done this for pitches when I'm trying to find sponsors for my wellness blog. And what I'll do is I'll use like Yet Another Mail Merge. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. But you can create this spreadsheet. Like I just use Google Docs. And I create this spreadsheet where it has their first name as one column the name of their business as another column and then I'll have like a personalization column where I write out like a paragraph, but then you can mass email it so I can do it like I batch work, and I'll do like 25 sponsors and I do all the research in advance so I'm in the zone and get into a good flow. And then I have the personalization column. I'm calling everybody by their first name. But I have a template that I'm using. And it's going to plug in those personalization details. And then I can hit send, and it will send 25 at once. So I'm not having to do this copy pasting or like pulling different things. I think again, I'm wondering like, is this cheating? Or is the fact that no, there's the personalization in there? It's just like an efficiency hack.

Mai-kee Tsang 50:29

Yeah, I was just about to say the word efficiency, there's, I think this idea of feeling like you're cheating comes from a place of feeling like everything needs to be hard earned. Which Yes, and there are some things that we can just let be easy.

Kate Kordsmeier 50:44

Had it be easy, that is like my mantra for 2020. And clearly, I'm still struggling.

Mai-kee Tsang 50:50

So it sounds to me that you've got an efficient setup there. And you're not cheating, because you are putting in that element of personalization. Because that is missing. That's when it's cheating. That's when there's no thought given whatsoever. That's the only time I guess it would be considered cheating. But you have an efficient setup. And you put in the personalization. So you get an email from me. Right? Yes.

Kate Kordsmeier 51:17

Do funny. Okay, so how about let's go back to the third piece of your framework?

Mai-kee Tsang 51:23

Yes. Okay. So once your pitch gets accepted, because it will if you follow the PR method, okay. The third phase is the pre interview prep and the post interview promotion. So this is kind of like, just imagine the gap between when your pitch gets accepted to when you actually do the interview. This can't last a long time, you know, there's a couple of weeks, maybe a couple months, I mean, that for us to get, you know, this interview took a couple weeks. So that's why, you know, I kept kept on your radar looked at the Instagram and spoke to your sister. Right. So that's that low time. And that is the time when you do get much more, you know, you do a bit more work around knowing what the podcast is about. And you know, listen to some episodes. And just like, you know, just like stay in the good books, because because of that load time, sometimes the connection that you may have had with the host that might have kind of like, faded a little bit, and just want to reinvigorate that connection, so that we are on zoom or squad cast in our case, you know, we can like just hit the ground running. And so that's the pre interview prep that you set up yourself, you know, to know about the podcast, and of course, you set the microphone, you're set up. And so for me, I've got my, you know, on my lovely office jungle that no one can see because it's an audio. But you know, I, that's what it is. But when the interview actually happens, that's where the magic is.

Kate Kordsmeier 52:53

Yeah, because Sure,

Mai-kee Tsang 52:54

I feel that so many people focus on the vehicle and not okay, as cheesy as it sounds, the vehicle, not the destination. But the destination is when the podcast goes live. And then the journey continues from there. Like when that goes live. It's your duty, and an honor to share what you've spoken about with the host and on the episode and what the podcast represents. And that's also the catalyst for a longer lasting relationship

Kate Kordsmeier 53:22

as well. I'm so glad that you said that, because it's something that I've really been trying to work on personally when I am a guest on people's podcasts. But then it's something that I've seen a lot since starting my own podcast is I'm shocked at how many people come on as a guest. And then when the episode comes out, they don't share it with their audience. They don't, you know, do anything. And maybe in their minds, they're thinking, Well, I'm not going to promote your show. But I'm thinking, this is just giving your audience further proof of your expertise. And you know, saying like, Look, I'm a big deal. I was just on this podcast, and I don't really understand why people don't do it more. But I do think it's really something that's lacking and that can really just amplify your results.

Mai-kee Tsang 54:09

Yes, absolutely. And as somebody who's been on over 30 podcasts, it definitely takes strategic planning with your content. So it doesn't feel like it's, you know, the same thing over and over again, that needs to be unique angles. So for example, this episode, Kate, we talked about micro traumas, and I've never talked about that on a podcast for so you bet your buttons that I'm going to highlight that when when I let you know that the pre promotion for this episode. But yeah, I hundred percent agree with that. Sharing the podcast, it helps you to maintain the connection with the host first and foremost. And it also helps you to as you said, like elevate your authority, because now you're associated with being an incredible expert. Could you've been interviewed.

Kate Kordsmeier 54:58

Right? Exactly. And even though these people in your audience are already in your audience, like they may not have purchased from you yet, or they may not have joined your programs, and maybe this will be what tips them over the edge and says, Oh my gosh, wow. Yeah, I learned so much from this podcast, or I'm impressed that she was talking to so and so and whatever it might be it yeah, that seems like it's a missed opportunity if you don't share it.

Mai-kee Tsang 55:25

Yeah. And I think it's important to remember that I think a lot of people want to be on podcasts because they want to kind of like, expand their reach. Right, right. But I think to myself, okay, it Yes, brand awareness is a happy benefit. But don't forget about solidifying brand loyalty, which is when people see you as an expert time and time and time, again, on different podcasts on different publications, different summits, all of that accumulates to a buying decision later on down the line. You know, so true. That's important. For sure. So true.

Kate Kordsmeier 56:03

Okay,

I have so much more I want to talk to you about but I know we're coming up on the end here. So I have this lightning round that we do with everybody at the end of the episodes. So I have got five quick questions for you. I guess. We'll just go through them. So what is your favorite way to make time for self care while running your own business?

Mai-kee Tsang 56:23

Hmm. Okay. So I don't judge the medicine, which is what one of my mentors say. So I love to incorporate like spaces I pad of the times I have calls. And sometimes out which cheeky episode of Desperate Housewives I'm watching that cannot happen on Friday. Or right now I'm looking after my sister's cats. So like, I would just like pop into the room like where they're living in. And I just like stroke their heads. The thing that I write, like, I create little pockets of time, not necessarily like assigning an entire day for it. But for me, what works really well is just like having those little pockets of time where I can just ease off from like a from a task or from a call. So that way I can show up more invigorated for the next one.

Kate Kordsmeier 57:11

Yeah, so smart. I love that. Um, do you have a tool or a strategy that you use to help with time management?

Mai-kee Tsang 57:19

Asana,

Kate Kordsmeier 57:20

Asana, I'm an Asana girl till I love it. What is the most powerful business or mindset book that you've read? And it doesn't have to be ever because I'm sure that's hard to narrow down if you're a reader like me, but maybe just something recently, or something that stands out in your mind as being like That was a good one.

Mai-kee Tsang 57:41

Oh, all thumbs up if it's a business one, though, but it was a really good one that helped me with business as I count. Yeah. Okay. Oh, gosh, I forgot the way I think is on my bookshelf. Let me just quickly see.

Kate Kordsmeier 57:54

I see a bunch of books behind you.

Mai-kee Tsang 57:56

Yeah. Okay. So Oh, yeah. The five Secrets You Must discover before you die. I thought to john is Oh,

Kate Kordsmeier 58:02

oh, okay. I haven't heard of that before.

Mai-kee Tsang 58:06

Yeah, that that one. grounded. So

Kate Kordsmeier 58:10

we're gonna need I've just was talking to my team about this recently that we need to create just like a reading list from the podcast, because we ask everybody this question. So now there's so many good books that have been thrown out and like we need just like a place where they're all listed so that people can start making their way through the Success with Soul reading list? Yes, absolutely. Okay, I don't know how you have mantras or affirmations. But I always like to ask people if they have a favorite one, or something that you're telling yourself right now or if you have like sticky notes you put up on your computer?

Mai-kee Tsang 58:42

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. So I actually didn't mention this. I normally mentioned this during the pitch process, but this applies to everything in business. So something that I always like that helps me come back into center. Whenever I feel that a visibility opportunity suddenly seems like a number. Right? Because sometimes it still it can feel like a task if you let it. But what I always tell myself service over self importance. Hmm,

Kate Kordsmeier 59:10

that's a good one. That's a really good one. And very fitting for the podcast because as you know, the name is Success with Soul. I feel like that is such a soulful way to run your business. But I'm curious what Success with Soul means to you,

Mai-kee Tsang 59:28

um, Success with so for me? It means creating anything that feels aligned with the person you are not who you think you should be. Hmm.

Kate Kordsmeier 59:43

Yeah, there's a lot of sheds, especially for women. So I think that is so important. I really appreciate you being here and just being vulnerable and sharing your authentic self with us. It was so amazing to talk with you. Tell us Everybody where they can find you and how they can work with you.

Mai-kee Tsang 1:00:03

Yes, thank you so much for having me, Kate, this has been such an amazing conversation. And I really appreciate you holding space, especially during some of the vulnerable moments. Thank you. So, yeah, you can find me at www.MaikeeTsang.com, where your I actually have a really cool easter egg treasure hunt on there. And that is a reflection of my brand when it comes to being professionally playful, because I believe, why not have fun if you can get the work done at the same time. So that's where you can find me to learn more about how I can help help you in the podcast gifting space. So at this at the time of this recording, while I don't pitch for my clients anymore, or even like my team pitching for them, what I do instead is I have VIP spotlight days. So those are incredible pockets of time where I have a five hour time with you, where we go deep into your story. And from there, pull out your topics of influence that we can turn into a custom pitch. So by the end of the day, you're going to have your story heard, you're going to know what makes you uniquely credible, and what only you can talk about, and I wrote the pitch for you. So you just sit back and relax while that happens. And the whole purpose of this is so that it can be a self sustaining way for you to pitch the podcast because everything feels aligned. There's nothing in the process you've been disconnected from. And I also send you some resources as well to help you like train a VA if you don't want to do it yourself, as well. So that to me is how I best serve my clients because I'm really able to hold their hand during the creation phase. And so if that sounds interesting to you, I'd love to chat with you about our VIP spotlight day. And that's also on my website.

Kate Kordsmeier 1:02:00

Perfect.

Mai-kee Tsang 1:02:01

Thank you. Thank you so much, Kate.

Kate Kordsmeier 1:02:08

Thanks for listening to the Success with Soul Podcast the place to be for holistic online business strategies and achieving more with less, as this show is a brand spankin new any and all support is greatly appreciated. So if you haven't done so already, please subscribe on the apple podcast app, Google podcast, app, Spotify or wherever you listen. This makes it possible for me to continue to provide free helpful content and bring you amazing guests. You can also give us a rating and review with your honest feedback so we can improve and better serve you in the future. Plus, you could be featured on a future episode during our listener spotlights. Your reviews are super helpful and motivating to me personally. But beyond that reviews help with rankings, which helps others find the show and allows me to keep providing you with free content every single week. Share the podcast with your friends, family, coworkers, dogs, cats, neighbors, whoever. And don't forget to join the free Success with Soul Facebook community at successwithsoul.co/Facebook. We have follow up conversations about the podcast episodes and I often go live to answer your burning questions. Plus, you'll get to hang out with like minded bloggers and heart centered online business owners exchanging priceless feedback, encouragement and other golden insight from the trenches. That's successwithsoul.co/Facebook. Until next time, remember to celebrate your progress, not perfection.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai